Scorsese slams MCU 0

[▫️]

CB fans may not want to accept it but he’s right. Keeping in mind there’s nothing wrong with theme park rides. Turn off your brain, hold on and wooo! 
I’ve rewatched Dark Knight and Winter Soldier more than any flick by Scorsese but I’m well aware they don’t measure up against his best. 
 

[@therealsilvermane]

1 hour ago, Oddball said:

CB fans may not want to accept it but he’s right. Keeping in mind there’s nothing wrong with theme park rides. Turn off your brain, hold on and wooo! 
I’ve rewatched Dark Knight and Winter Soldier more than any flick by Scorsese but I’m well aware they don’t measure up against his best. 
 

This reminds me of how adults in my life growing up would constantly dismiss my comic book collection as garbage and not worth anything, literally or figuratively. In AP English in high school, I wanted to do a book report on a certain graphic novel and the teacher said I could but I'd get no higher than a C because comic books aren't real literature. Screw that. Comic book culture has taken over the mainstream and folks like Martin Scorsese and Jennifer Aniston don't like it. Yes, there's nothing wrong with theme park rides, but good super-hero comic book movies are more than just theme park rides. They can be as much a work of art or social commentary or character piece as anything Alfred Hitchcock did.

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, @therealsilvermane said:

This reminds me of how adults in my life growing up would constantly dismiss my comic book collection as garbage and not worth anything, literally or figuratively. In AP English in high school, I wanted to do a book report on a certain graphic novel and the teacher said I could but I'd get no higher than a C because comic books aren't real literature. Screw that. Comic book culture has taken over the mainstream and folks like Martin Scorsese and Jennifer Aniston don't like it. Yes, there's nothing wrong with theme park rides, but good super-hero comic book movies are more than just theme park rides. They can be as much a work of art or social commentary or character piece as anything Alfred Hitchcock did.

Agreed! Comic books as illustrated storytelling seems to get dismissed too easily when if anything the art enhances the reader's experience in immersing themselves into each tale.

But Scorsese's point is a valid one in that the list of comic book films you can say are deep and engaging standalone stories gets whittled down substantially.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Bosco685

[@therealsilvermane]

2 hours ago, Oddball said:

Of course comic book movies can be considered art and reflect social issues. Scorsese’s remark may seem harsh but he’s old school and I share his opinion despite my love for comic movies. Can you name one comic book film you consider a brilliant masterpiece outside of its genre? I love Winter Soldier but it will never stack up against Goodfellas. We are talking product as a whole. 
 

Only a few films can be considered a masterpiece outside that film's genre. In my opinion, the only science fiction American film that's a true masterpiece is 2001: A Space Odyssey, but that's highly arguable (I don't consider Star Wars a masterpiece of film art, but that's just me). In the American western genre, maybe a few films by John Ford and Howard Hawks and perhaps Unforgiven could be called a genre transcending masterpiece of film art. To try to stack up any movie against Goodfellas is an exercise in failure. In my opinion, Superman the Movie and Tim Burton's Batman are really good films bordering on masterpiece. I think Ang Lee's Hulk, though not well received by the general public, is a minor masterpiece of film art. There's so much technique, metaphor, and thought crammed into that movie I could write a book about it. As far as the MCU goes, Black Panther is an incredible movie. Infinity War and Endgame were gut wrenching films. As a film person myself, I've studied Martin Scorsese a long time and this is the first time I've seen him turn on a certain segment of the film industry. He's usually so supportive of movies in general. It's disappointing to hear him dismiss films that mean so much to so many people.

[WoWitHurts]

4 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

This reminds me of how adults in my life growing up would constantly dismiss my comic book collection as garbage and not worth anything, literally or figuratively. In AP English in high school, I wanted to do a book report on a certain graphic novel and the teacher said I could but I'd get no higher than a C because comic books aren't real literature. Screw that. Comic book culture has taken over the mainstream and folks like Martin Scorsese and Jennifer Aniston don't like it. Yes, there's nothing wrong with theme park rides, but good super-hero comic book movies are more than just theme park rides. They can be as much a work of art or social commentary or character piece as anything Alfred Hitchcock did.

Super hero movies are real cinema. He just doesn't like them much like "Real" artists and intellectuals pooh pooh comics as NOT art. My painting professor hated comics and derided them any chance he got. I pointed out one day that one of the greatest works of art is essentially sequential paneled art. The Sistine chapel, especially the ceiling to me looks like a comic with its exaggerated musculature and dramatic depiction. 

Even within the industry when I was introducing photoshop coloring to Marvel and elsewhere people actually said it wasn't "Real" coloring because it wasn't done by the hand.

He just doesn't like it or the way that its done. I would be interested in seeing a Scorsese directed SH movie.

 

[Martin Sinescu]

This seems to me similar to Alan Moore's stance as a comic writer.... I think both artists strive for something more and want to see their respective media pushed to the limits, to be challenging for the audience and creators, etc. etc. The thing is, not every artist or viewer can reach this transcendent state or even wants to. I don't disagree with the idea that these movies are akin to theme park rides, but that's their point and that's the audience they're trying to bring in. There's something comforting about being able to escape life and turn your brain off for millions of people. Trite, but well-done, entertainment is important in society.

[Hamlet]

Scorsese has made some great movies, but he's also made a lot of self-indulgent garbage too.  The Wolf of Wall Street is really just three hours of watching Scorsese masturbate, IMO.

[zhamlau]

Has he given his opinion yet on "Joker"?

[▫️]

2 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Only a few films can be considered a masterpiece outside that film's genre. In my opinion, the only science fiction American film that's a true masterpiece is 2001: A Space Odyssey, but that's highly arguable (I don't consider Star Wars a masterpiece of film art, but that's just me). In the American western genre, maybe a few films by John Ford and Howard Hawks and perhaps Unforgiven could be called a genre transcending masterpiece of film art. To try to stack up any movie against Goodfellas is an exercise in failure. In my opinion, Superman the Movie and Tim Burton's Batman are really good films bordering on masterpiece. I think Ang Lee's Hulk, though not well received by the general public, is a minor masterpiece of film art. There's so much technique, metaphor, and thought crammed into that movie I could write a book about it. As far as the MCU goes, Black Panther is an incredible movie. Infinity War and Endgame were gut wrenching films. As a film person myself, I've studied Martin Scorsese a long time and this is the first time I've seen him turn on a certain segment of the film industry. He's usually so supportive of movies in general. It's disappointing to hear him dismiss films that mean so much to so many people.

Seriously, I could have written every word above. I agree with each example you made from 2001 to Ford and even Ang Lee’s Hulk. 

[the blob]

1 hour ago, zhamlau said:

Has he given his opinion yet on "Joker"?

If the Joker was a theme park movie, it was a disturbing theme park. The Joker was a remake of Taxi Driver, more or less, except Deniro's character in Taxi Driver was more connected to reality and had more realistic goals. With that said, Scorcese is just yapping old man talk. The MCU movies are delivering a movie to a broad demographic. 6-12 year olds don't want "cinema" and the 30-40-50 year olds taking them to the movies are content with some action and a bit of plot. It's called entertainment. A movie doesn't have to leave you with a pit in your stomach for a few days.

[jsilverjanet]

 

[jsilverjanet]

 

[jsilverjanet]

 

[dupont2005]

I agree with him completely but it’s not limited to Marvel movies the slightest bit. Wide release theatrical movies, on average, are just getting worse. They’re all sequels and franchise movies. CGI spectacles light on plot and heavy on nostalgic IP. Audiences aren’t looking to be challenged when watching a movie. They don’t want to feel emotion when watching a movie. They want to see Spider-Man, car chases, and explosions. I feel like the influence of international box office is a major contributor to this. If you look back at international cinema, fantastic senseless rainbow colored super powered action goes back decades. It wasn’t comic book super heroes, but comic book super heroes fit right in with what they were already familiar with. 

[Mr Sneeze]

I think if you pressed Scorsese, he would agree that great movies can come from any genre. But I suspect there is a knee jerk reaction among the film elite that views working for big budget movies and more than likely Disney in particular as a creatively stifling affair.

There have been some great movies in the genre and again for me the better of them leave the superhero stuff behind.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Mr Sneeze

[@therealsilvermane]

2 hours ago, dupont2005 said:

I agree with him completely but it’s not limited to Marvel movies the slightest bit. Wide release theatrical movies, on average, are just getting worse. They’re all sequels and franchise movies. CGI spectacles light on plot and heavy on nostalgic IP. Audiences aren’t looking to be challenged when watching a movie. They don’t want to feel emotion when watching a movie. They want to see Spider-Man, car chases, and explosions. I feel like the influence of international box office is a major contributor to this. If you look back at international cinema, fantastic senseless rainbow colored super powered action goes back decades. It wasn’t comic book super heroes, but comic book super heroes fit right in with what they were already familiar with. 

Completely disagree. The MCU gets a lot of attention and a lot of rocks thrown at it because it makes so much money, but a lot of movies with theatrical releases are still the boring drama character movies that win awards. Look at the list of Best Picture nominees for the Oscars last year. Most of them are character dramas, including Black Panther.

Also, television and streaming services like Netflix pick up a lot of the slack of more character based drama. Mini-series are kind of a thing now, like the excellent Fargo on FX. The art of film and cinema doesn't have to be exclusively a theater release. 

[jsilverjanet]

[dupont2005]

1 hour ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Completely disagree. The MCU gets a lot of attention and a lot of rocks thrown at it because it makes so much money, but a lot of movies with theatrical releases are still the boring drama character movies that win awards. Look at the list of Best Picture nominees for the Oscars last year. Most of them are character dramas, including Black Panther.

Also, television and streaming services like Netflix pick up a lot of the slack of more character based drama. Mini-series are kind of a thing now, like the excellent Fargo on FX. The art of film and cinema doesn't have to be exclusively a theater release. 

Black Panther isn’t a character drama. I actually spent a fair bit of time researching top ten international box office releases over the course of 40 years. This is what I got 

1979 - 1 sequel

1980 - 2 sequels

1981 - 3 sequels 

1982 - 2 sequels

1983 - 2 sequels 

1984 - 2 sequels

1985 - 2 sequels

1986 - 3 sequels

1987 - 1 sequel

1988 - 1 sequel

Average of 1.9 sequels per year. Low of 1, high of 3

1989 - 4 sequels

1990 - 2 sequels

1991 - 2 sequels

1992 - 3 sequels

1993 - no sequels 

1994 - no sequels 

1995 - 4 sequels 

1996 - 1 sequel 

1997 - 2 sequels

1998 - no sequels

Average of 1.8 sequels per year. Low of 0, high of 4

1999 - 3 sequels

2000 - 1 sequel

2001 - 3 sequels

2002 - 7 sequels

2003 - 5 sequels

2004 - 5 sequels

2005 - 3 sequels

2006 - 5 sequels 

2007 - 5 sequels

2008 - 5 sequels

Average of 4.2 sequels per year. Low of 1, high of 7. First year with majority sequels

2009 - 6 sequels

2010 - 5 sequels

2011 - 9 sequels

2012 - 7 sequels

2013 - 8 sequels

2014 - 8 sequels

2015 - 6 sequels

2016 - 8 sequels

2017 - 10 sequels

2018 - 10 sequels

Average of 7.7 sequels per year. Low of 5, high of 10. First decade without a year with majority original content. First year with all sequels. First decade with majority average.

For convenience I listed all franchise movies and remakes as “sequels” on the list. So modern live action Disney remakes of classic cartoons, like Jungke Book, are counted among them. Franchise movies considered sequels, so all 007 movies. I didn’t count the first entry in a series intended to become a franchise, so the first Lord Of The Rings or Harry Potter movie won’t be included. Cheech & Chong’s Nice Dreams considered a sequel here, even though there appears to be no continuity and the characters don’t have the same names they did in Up In Smoke. Moviegoers knew what they were getting when they went, and that was the point. Star Wars Episode IV not considered a sequel. Worldwide box office used from the-numbers.com. 2002 Spider-Man counted but 1990 Batman didn’t. The Batman serials weren’t really movies, and the Adam West movie was a TV adaptation, so I consider the 1990 Batman movie to be the “first” Batman movie, and not a part of an existing franchise, TV adaptations not counted, so the Simpson’s movie not counted, Smurf's not counted. All MCU movies counted. Marvel feature cartoons not counted if a first entry, big hero 6 not counted. IT counted but maybe it shouldn’t have since the miniseries wasn’t a movie. Oh well. DC superhero movies counted except 1990 Batman since Superman. I counted Wonder Woman

 

what TV does is irrelevant to the discussion. It is not a matter of opinion that sequels, remakes, and franchise movies have taken over Hollywood. 

 

[zhamlau]

Of course there are more sequels. The only things we seem to like collectively is stuff made in 2007 and before. Every movie people are excited for seems be tied to a property that was popular at least a decade ago or more. It’s just a trend I’ve noticed,

[bane]

5 hours ago, jsilverjanet said:

This.