Relative Newbie Question 0

[PhilipB2k17]

13 hours ago, Real Elijah Snow said:

I've literally explained my reasoning on "taking offers"  twice now. 

When I do become motivated to sell something with the "offers" tag that's when the offers come into play. Then I'm ready to sell. Not now. In the future. 

 

Ummmm...what? You aren’t an “unmotivated seller.” You’re not behaving any differently than someone with a NFS tag who receives offers for a piece. 

All you’re doing is playing games with potential buyers. 

[Rick2you2]

11 hours ago, grapeape said:

May have discovered the low baller insurance protection offer template......To the far right of chart appears maximum low ball.

I know this is kidding around, but the concept doesn’t work in this market because it is too small and market prices vary.

Example: someone just listed a page from a particular book for $1,200. I know, in the past year, a similar maybe lesser page, has been sitting unsold for about $600. A 2/3rds page with circulation data sold on Clink for about $350, after not selling privately for about $700, and either the same or a similar page now being offered for $1,200 was previously offered for around $900 by someone else. Now, if someone wrote “make me an offer”, what is a lowball offer? Bottom of the market maybe as low as $500. If the unmotivated seller would be insulted by anything other than around $1,200, then he has too thin a skin. A fair response, I think, should be given.

[vodou]

3 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

All you’re doing is playing games with potential buyers. 

And all you're doing is turning a 1/4 page thread into 3 pages (and counting...)

[Real Elijah Snow]

5 hours ago, vodou said:

And all you're doing is turning a 1/4 page thread into 3 pages (and counting...)

His comprehension skills are severely lacking. I'm done talking to him, and playing games with his precious heart. 

 

[Rick2you2]

On 11/4/2019 at 7:20 AM, PhilipB2k17 said:

Don’t say “accepting offers,” and then refuse to provide a counter offer when someone makes you an offer. You can say it’s too low! That’s how negotiations work. You then reply with a number you would sell the piece at. If you don’t want to sell, don’t say you are accepting offers. 

What you suggest is the fairer way for someone to handle it. But at the very least, the response should be something like “I won’t consider offers less than_______”, but it has to exceed that amount.”

[exitmusicblue]

In true OA thread fashion, we headin' to Pluto.

If I want something, I offer what I'm willing to pay.  It's likely under the MAX I'm willing to play, but not by much.

Sometimes I get counters.  Less often I get straight acceptances.  Almost never do I get snark.  Works for me, so will keep it going.  : ]

Also: If someone pings me asking about a piece, I either respond that it's NFS or to make an offer.  Again... simple.  Btw, it's on the potential buyer to educate him/herself so that an offer isn't in lowball territory.  In many cases, there are publicly available comps.  Reputations tend to form in this hobby, and regular lowballer ain't a good label to have.

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by exitmusicblue

[Rick2you2]

5 hours ago, exitmusicblue said:

In true OA thread fashion, we headin' to Pluto.

If I want something, I offer what I'm willing to pay.  It's likely under the MAX I'm willing to play, but not by much.

Sometimes I get counters.  Less often I get straight acceptances.  Almost never do I get snark.  Works for me, so will keep it going.  : ]

Also: If someone pings me asking about a piece, I either respond that it's NFS or to make an offer.  Again... simple.  Btw, it's on the potential buyer to educate him/herself so that an offer isn't in lowball territory.  In many cases, there are publicly available comps.  Reputations tend to form in this hobby, and regular lowballer ain't a good label to have.

 

What do you consider a lowball offer, not just by percent, but also by comp.'s? I don't just mean low; I mean lowball.

Do you use Heritage/Clink/ComicArtTracker, pricing on CAF, or something else? And given that prices can really vary a lot by subject, artist, and type (splash, action, etc.), as well as dates of artistry as well as prior dates of sale (which on occasion can go down), what qualifies as really low? Yes, $20 for Kirby is low, and I don't care what the piece looks like. But I cannot compare Ross Andru on Spideman to Ross Andru on Brave and the Bold (with Batman/Phantom Stranger) and neither does the market.

That's another problem with "make an offer" postings. The requester may consider low as lowball, endangering a snotty response to the potential buyer.

[exitmusicblue]

14 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

What do you consider a lowball offer, not just by percent, but also by comp.'s? I don't just mean low; I mean lowball.

Do you use Heritage/Clink/ComicArtTracker, pricing on CAF, or something else? And given that prices can really vary a lot by subject, artist, and type (splash, action, etc.), as well as dates of artistry as well as prior dates of sale (which on occasion can go down), what qualifies as really low? Yes, $20 for Kirby is low, and I don't care what the piece looks like. But I cannot compare Ross Andru on Spideman to Ross Andru on Brave and the Bold (with Batman/Phantom Stranger) and neither does the market.

That's another problem with "make an offer" postings. The requester may consider low as lowball, endangering a snotty response to the potential buyer.

Good question -- for me, "lowball" is drastic and pointless, i.e. nothing nuanced about it.  Things get gray in situations like the Andru case you mention above.

I've offered $800 for a page with a probable FMV $1200+, and was lucky when seller accepted outright (for whatever reason).  I wouldn't offer $400.  Perhaps a good guide is lowballing = less than 50% of estimated (not wishful) FMV. 

[Rick2you2]

2 hours ago, exitmusicblue said:

Good question -- for me, "lowball" is drastic and pointless, i.e. nothing nuanced about it.  Things get gray in situations like the Andru case you mention above.

I've offered $800 for a page with a probable FMV $1200+, and was lucky when seller accepted outright (for whatever reason).  I wouldn't offer $400.  Perhaps a good guide is lowballing = less than 50% of estimated (not wishful) FMV. 

Seems reasonable to keep in mind, but in a sense, it's the same problem cut down to 50%.

And let's not forget the issue of timing. A certain dealer, who will go nameless set a price on a 1970's piece of a not well known artist, for $575. It has probably been listed for 6 years or more at that price, and has not moved. Naturally, it is also in a dead part of the market. What the heck is the FMV of that? And if we pretend it was a collector, not a dealer who said make me an offer, how does one make an offer which doesn't sound insulting? I will bet he paid around $250, which is probably only a little less than it should go for now.

[exitmusicblue]

6 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

Seems reasonable to keep in mind, but in a sense, it's the same problem cut down to 50%.

And let's not forget the issue of timing. A certain dealer, who will go nameless set a price on a 1970's piece of a not well known artist, for $575. It has probably been listed for 6 years or more at that price, and has not moved. Naturally, it is also in a dead part of the market. What the heck is the FMV of that? And if we pretend it was a collector, not a dealer who said make me an offer, how does one make an offer which doesn't sound insulting? I will bet he paid around $250, which is probably only a little less than it should go for now.

Sadly... as in many things within the OA world... comes down to subjectivity.  Sometimes, heads will butt.  And that's alright.  :']

Or maybe Keats got it right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_capability

[MIL0S]

Speaking of 'fair market value' and comps, I was recently contacted by a seller/artist rep based on the contents of my CAF gallery directing me to some of his inventory. now, I had seen the items he had listed for sale, they've been listed with prices for over 3 years and remain unsold. I never bothered contacting him or making an offer since his prices and mine were so far apart but since he pushed I replied and he was 'insulted'.  So if there are no comparables to be found and if pieces are listed for years at a price and remain unsold what is 'fair market value'?  

[grapeape]

8 minutes ago, MIL0S said:

Speaking of 'fair market value' and comps, I was recently contacted by a seller/artist rep based on the contents of my CAF gallery directing me to some of his inventory. now, I had seen the items he had listed for sale, they've been listed with prices for over 3 years and remain unsold. I never bothered contacting him or making an offer since his prices and mine were so far apart but since he pushed I replied and he was 'insulted'.  So if there are no comparables to be found and if pieces are listed for years at a price and remain unsold what is 'fair market value'?  

Whatever you can actually sell something for. Whatever you can buy something for. FMV is over used in our hobby, life style what have you. It's good to know in general what a particular artist or art has been selling for. However most of us I think have to go by all we've learned and rely on intuition. What sounds right to offer? What would make me happy to accept? I see many items stagnate on CAF or dealer inventory.

Many on the board get frustrated. "Why don't people just put a price on something so I don't have to pay games?'

Then as you mentioned being contacted by a rep who has unmoved inventory(3 yrs). They are asking to much? Maybe. Only an auction would truly answer that question. However motivations differ. That rep has a stake in protecting the perceived value of the artists work. Selling it on the site is profitable to the artists and reps without getting an auction house involved.

Not finding comparable sales data can work in your favor. You can be a trail blazer instead of a slave to data that sometimes lies.

Thanks for posting....this is something that every collector has to factor in to how they buy and sell.

 

[grapeape]

On 11/7/2019 at 11:08 PM, exitmusicblue said:

Sadly... as in many things within the OA world... comes down to subjectivity.  Sometimes, heads will butt.  And that's alright.  :']

Or maybe Keats got it right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_capability

Brilliant reference here. It's amazing what we can accomplish here in dialogue when we're not misbehaving! That is to go way off topic on a thread, or bogged down on an opinion we hold dear.

Cheers

[vodou]

2 hours ago, grapeape said:

Whatever you can actually sell something for. Whatever you can buy something for. FMV is over used in our hobby, life style what have you. It's good to know in general what a particular artist or art has been selling for. However most of us I think have to go by all we've learned and rely on intuition. What sounds right to offer? What would make me happy to accept? I see many items stagnate on CAF or dealer inventory.

Many on the board get frustrated. "Why don't people just put a price on something so I don't have to pay games?'

Then as you mentioned being contacted by a rep who has unmoved inventory(3 yrs). They are asking to much? Maybe. Only an auction would truly answer that question. However motivations differ. That rep has a stake in protecting the perceived value of the artists work. Selling it on the site is profitable to the artists and reps without getting an auction house involved.

Not finding comparable sales data can work in your favor. You can be a trail blazer instead of a slave to data that sometimes lies.

Thanks for posting....this is something that every collector has to factor in to how they buy and sell.

 

Great job grapeape. I'll add that the whole subject boils down to those that love dickering when buying a car (new or even more fun used) and those that just prefer The Saturn Experience

[grapeape]

2 minutes ago, vodou said:

Great job grapeape. I'll add that the whole subject boils down to those that love dickering when buying a car (new or even more fun used) and those that just prefer The Saturn Experience

I miss my Saturn and the service. How did they screw that up? My car color was plum. It was the only one I saw for a year. Ten years later they were all plum.