The Death of the Classic Storyline As a Collectible 0

[JayT]

I think the answer is fairly simple. They printed enough of these when they were made for everyone who wants them to have them and there isn't going to be a surge of new people who want them because comics, at least mainstream superhero comics (which is what we are mostly talking about), have not picked up a new generation of readers since the 90s. There ARE new comics readers (Dog Man's last book shipped 5 MILLION) but they don't care about the 80s in general, never mind the comics of the 80s, and when you combine that with simply living in the modern world, every kid knows how to get any comic for free IF they wanted to read it and they certainly don't want to collect anything. 

If you have the kind of money and space to collect things there are much more compelling things to do and if you don't have the space and money it's a non-starter.

Marvel and DC made the choice (perhaps one they had to make) to age with its audience and that audience is a generally a  bunch of 35+ year old dudes. We are all going to die sooner than later  and meanwhile Raina Telgemeier is getting rich introducing comics to new readers and the  much of the old man stuck in the 80s and before comic collector group  doesn't engage with actual comics anymore. Now, in Japan, you constantly have new comics that come in and become the most popular thing of the moment to a new generation even if there is a giant (One Piece) hovering above everything. You can still be the biggest Astro Boy fan and know that it got toppled by Akira, that it got toppled byJoJo, that it got toppled by Dragonball, that it got toppled by Naruto, that it got toppled by Death Note, that it got toppled Attack on Titan, that it got toppled by My Hero Academia all while the others were still succeeding on a large level and One Piece being the most popular comic in the world over the last 2 decades or so and something like Doraemon being a giant world ambassador. Older readers evolve into manga for older people and more new young stuff came to gain new generations. Something will replace One Piece one day. We do't have that here. People still read Batman and Superman.Spider-Man and X-Men is what view as the refresh, pillars of the Marvel age,...that mess was 40 years ago .

Also...man I love comics but even I could be compelled by the argument that in a world where Into the Spider-verse exists who needs old comics?

So when we are talking about new money coming in, that new money can probably only come from a place that has no reason to be interested. People don't collect things in comics now, they read them or flip them and the latter is VERY different than collecting. Now, the idea of procuring a piece of something you love is very much alive. People will often buy a physical collection of say a webcomic they read for free (and these people are making GOOD money). They will buy merch, they will come see these people and stand in lines to get an autographed books, but these are new people making new things and the old things we love is available in a much more modern way in films where Marvel's run at the box office is unprecedented and has almost universal appeal to civilians. There is a big difference in being an active collector to make money (which a lot of people do, and look this is absolutely not judgement just a statement) and collecting because you actually LOVE it. You don't LOVE the latest hot rare variant cover by the artists who doesn't even draw comics anymore and in some cases haven't in decades. Nobody is that good and if they were they'd have a real career in art like a James Jean where they are the brand, they are the connection, and don't have to be associated with a character or brand, THEY are the brand.

It's not about "stuff" anymore it's about connection.It's not about a kid in their room who had zero options to do anything during a rainy day reading and rereading the pile of comics they had. You have to connect to people who have not only many but many great options.

Edited December 25, 2019 by JayT

[shadroch]

I  started reading comics regularly in 1972/73. Had I had the ability to sit at my computer and read whatever back issue I wanted, I certainly wouldn't have spent my time and money hunting down every used bookshop/ rummage sale, antique store in miles and I would have put my meager spending money to much better use. In 1974, I got $7 a week allowance and often bought two dozen books a week, as well as trying to put something aside for the next convention.

[jimbo_7071]

Quote

So, all during the Infinity War storyline in the MCU, I kept waiting...and expecting...that certain key books would see a huge boost in popularity; Silver Surfer #34, as the return of Thanos to the Marvel U and the start of the Thanos Quest and the Infinity Gauntlet, chief among them.

And yet, throughout the whole thing...nothing. I expected big things for Thanos Quest #1 and #2, as well, and...not much. Infinity Gauntlet #1 popped, and SS #44, as the first appearance of the gauntlet, certainly enjoyed its spotlight...but to earlier parts of the story? Nothing. Now that that storyline is done, and Thanos has been shelved, there's obviously no further public consciousness, and these books will quietly fade back to the obscurity they had for a couple of decades.

I take that as meaning that collectors en masse have moved beyond storylines, and care only about things like "first appearances" and the like. It seems like classic storylines, especially from the Bronze, Copper, and early Modern eras, just don't matter to collectors...many of whom have never even read them. 

And, frankly...I find that more than a little sad.[/QUOTE]

Comic books are nearing their Zenith as collectibles. The past price bumps from movies have been all about speculation, which in most cases didn't pan out long term. It's something that happens to all hobbies that are tied to popular culture. What if popular culture never changed? Wouldn't that be kind of boring?

I get a little sad knowing that the hobby will be on the wane in another decade or so, but if I'm honest with myself, it's really my own mortaltity that I'm lamenting. The world of my chikdhood is gone forever, and I'm at the age where I might well have more years behind me than ahead of me. 

Edited December 26, 2019 by jimbo_7071

[jimbo_7071]

On 11/11/2019 at 9:46 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

So, all during the Infinity War storyline in the MCU, I kept waiting...and expecting...that certain key books would see a huge boost in popularity; Silver Surfer #34, as the return of Thanos to the Marvel U and the start of the Thanos Quest and the Infinity Gauntlet, chief among them.

And yet, throughout the whole thing...nothing. I expected big things for Thanos Quest #1 and #2, as well, and...not much. Infinity Gauntlet #1 popped, and SS #44, as the first appearance of the gauntlet, certainly enjoyed its spotlight...but to earlier parts of the story? Nothing. Now that that storyline is done, and Thanos has been shelved, there's obviously no further public consciousness, and these books will quietly fade back to the obscurity they had for a couple of decades.

I take that as meaning that collectors en masse have moved beyond storylines, and care only about things like "first appearances" and the like. It seems like classic storylines, especially from the Bronze, Copper, and early Modern eras, just don't matter to collectors...many of whom have never even read them. 

And, frankly...I find that more than a little sad.

Comic books are nearing their Zenith as collectibles. The past price bumps from movies have been all about speculation, which in most cases hasn't panned out long term. It's something that happens to all hobbies that are tied to popular culture. What if popular culture never changed? Wouldn't that be kind of boring?

I get a little sad knowing that the hobby will be on the wane in another decade or so, but if I'm honest with myself, it's really my own mortaltity that I'm lamenting. The world of my childhood is gone forever, and I'm at the age where I might well have more years behind me than ahead of me.

Edited December 26, 2019 by jimbo_7071

[divad]

On 12/24/2019 at 8:10 AM, shadroch said:

I certainly wouldn't have spent my time and money hunting down every used bookshop/ rummage sale, antique store in miles

Yes, you would have . . . YOU are a collector, and don't forget it! 

[whetteon]

So I own a Silver Surfer #34 9.8 because it's just an awesome comic but since I'm at work and I don't have access to it, I will place this one up as a place holder!

 

 

[Gatsby77]

On 2/21/2020 at 4:00 PM, whetteon said:

So I own a Silver Surfer #34 9.8 because it's just an awesome comic but since I'm at work and I don't have access to it, I will place this one up as a place holder!

 

 

It's a great book, but it's also now 30 years old.

To have been read it off the stands or -- more likely -- a year and a half later once Silver Surfer 50 and Infinity Gauntlet # 1 hit, you'd have to be at least 42 years old.

I was the right age for this, but wasn't reading Surfer at the time -- first I ever heard of Thanos was the week that Silver Surfer 50 came out. And Infinity Gauntlet sealed the deal for me -- convinced me to go back and collect Marvel Premiere 1-2 & Warlock 1-15 (with, seemingly, the rest of the collecting world at the time).

But if you weren't there to read Infinity Gauntlet off-the-shelf, hear all the buzz around Thanos and Warlock at the time, why would you even know about Silver Surfer 34, let alone care about it?

And on the "getting older" / mortality point, it's weird to me that in 1990/1991, Amazing Fantasy 15 wasn't yet 30 years old. Marvel made a big deal of Spidey's 30th anniversary in 1992.

Here we are, nearly 30 years' later, and our generation has...what? A short list might include: Bone # 1, New Mutants 87/98, Silver Surfer 34, Ghost Rider 1, Spider-Man 1, Tim Drake Robin, The New Warriors, and Darkhawk.

Not exactly comparable, no?

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 2/22/2020 at 11:38 PM, Gatsby77 said:

It's a great book, but it's also now 30 years old.

To have been read it off the stands or -- more likely -- a year and a half later once Silver Surfer 50 and Infinity Gauntlet # 1 hit, you'd have to be at least 42 years old.

I was the right age for this, but wasn't reading Surfer at the time -- first I ever heard of Thanos was the week that Silver Surfer 50 came out. And Infinity Gauntlet sealed the deal for me -- convinced me to go back and collect Marvel Premiere 1-2 & Warlock 1-15 (with, seemingly, the rest of the collecting world at the time).

But if you weren't there to read Infinity Gauntlet off-the-shelf, hear all the buzz around Thanos and Warlock at the time, why would you even know about Silver Surfer 34, let alone care about it?

And on the "getting older" / mortality point, it's weird to me that in 1990/1991, Amazing Fantasy 15 wasn't yet 30 years old. Marvel made a big deal of Spidey's 30th anniversary in 1992.

Here we are, nearly 30 years' later, and our generation has...what? A short list might include: Bone # 1, New Mutants 87/98, Silver Surfer 34, Ghost Rider 1, Spider-Man 1, Tim Drake Robin, The New Warriors, and Darkhawk.

Not exactly comparable, no?

For Marvel perhaps. Let's see if the Bloodshot movie does anything to drive people to look for first appearances of the Valiant heavy hitters, which are all on the cusp of turning 30.

The big difference, of course, is that there are tons of books that are 30 years old that survive in great condition, whereas the same can't be said of books that were 30 years old 30 years ago.

[whetteon]

The weirdest thing is that I've seen this whole argument before...

 

Oh yeah, about every 10-15 years starting around 1985 when they said that comics were on the way out and then the Batman movie happened.. Well .

Than in 1995 they mentioned the comic bust that took the industry with it.....

Oh yeah, CGC came out. dang.

Well then in 2008 for sure this was the end. People were saying the price were at it's zenith and it could only bottom then...

Whoops, the MCU hit and it hit hard.

 

But here in 2020, for sure it will happen!

[Gatsby77]

38 minutes ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

For Marvel perhaps. Let's see if the Bloodshot movie does anything to drive people to look for first appearances of the Valiant heavy hitters, which are all on the cusp of turning 30.

The big difference, of course, is that there are tons of books that are 30 years old that survive in great condition, whereas the same can't be said of books that were 30 years old 30 years ago.

Much as I'd love the Bloodshot film to really break out and lead to a slew of connected Valiant films, I don't see it. The plot looks roughly the same as Upgrade, and the advertising's been remarkably light for a film less than three weeks from release.

And I'm a huge Valiant / Bloodshot fan - my username on the ValiantFans boards and Whet's board is, after all, "Rai-fan."

[valiantman]

53 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Much as I'd love the Bloodshot film to really break out and lead to a slew of connected Valiant films, I don't see it. The plot looks roughly the same as Upgrade, and the advertising's been remarkably light for a film less than three weeks from release.

People keep mentioning "Upgrade".  That 2018 movie made $16M worldwide. There is no way anyone even saw it, much less that they'll skip Bloodshot because of it. 

Bloodshot was advertised during the NBA All-Star game, which was 7.3 million viewers, and I think is a pretty good target audience for a PG-13 action Vin Diesel movie.

I'm not saying any of this makes a Valiant cinematic universe more likely, but Bloodshot as a stand-alone movie is not nearly as "doomed" as your comments would imply.

[whetteon]

43 minutes ago, valiantman said:

People keep mentioning "Upgrade".  That 2018 movie made $16M worldwide. There is no way anyone even saw it, much less that they'll skip Bloodshot because of it. 

Bloodshot was advertised during the NBA All-Star game, which was 7.3 million viewers, and I think is a pretty good target audience for a PG-13 action Vin Diesel movie.

I'm not saying any of this makes a Valiant cinematic universe more likely, but Bloodshot as a stand-alone movie is not nearly as "doomed" as your comments would imply.

DOOOOOoooomed! 

[Gatsby77]

I saw Upgrade (albeit via Redbox). Surprisingly good for having a no-name cast.

The point? What's the best-case domestic for Bloodshot? $60 million? $80 million? If it reaches $110 and does decent internationally - sure.

But this smells more like XXX: Return of Xander Cage (which, I'll grant, took off internationally) than one of Diesel's recent homeruns.

[valiantman]

34 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

I saw Upgrade (albeit via Redbox). Surprisingly good for having a no-name cast.

The point? What's the best-case domestic for Bloodshot? $60 million? $80 million? If it reaches $110 and does decent internationally - sure.

But this smells more like XXX: Return of Xander Cage (which, I'll grant, took off internationally) than one of Diesel's recent homeruns.

I saw a recent article that put Bloodshot production cost at $42 million, so I don't think it will take $110 million domestic to be successful.  $80 million domestic might be a home run for Sony.

[Gatsby77]

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

I saw a recent article that put Bloodshot production cost at $42 million, so I don't think it will take $110 million domestic to be successful.  $80 million domestic might be a home run for Sony.

Fair point.

[whetteon]

I think the bender on the right represents the Valiant of 1992. It's shinny, rare and is most likely limited in quantity and everything. The bender on the left represents the modern Valiant universe that has solid story telling and interesting plots.

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by whetteon

[whetteon]

awfully quite thread all of the sudden. That last post must have hit to close to home. I apologize.

 

[valiantman]

20 hours ago, whetteon said:

awfully quite thread all of the sudden. That last post must have hit to close to home. I apologize.

I think it's weird how 1992 books like Harbinger #1 and Rai #0 are from 28 years ago, but when they were new (in 1992) the 28 year old books at that time were books like Amazing Spider-Man #14 and Avengers #4.

Books like Amazing Spider-Man #50 are closer in age to Harbinger #1 than Harbinger #1 is to anything on the shelf new today.

The first Spider-Man movie appeared when Spider-Man was 40 years old. Superman got his Christopher Reeve movie when the character had been around 40 years. 

Batman the movie arrived when Batman was 50.  Bloodshot gets a movie at age 28. 

Edited March 3, 2020 by valiantman

[lou_fine]

On 2/24/2020 at 2:18 PM, Gatsby77 said:

On 2/24/2020 at 12:22 PM, valiantman said:

I saw a recent article that put Bloodshot production cost at $42 million, so I don't think it will take $110 million domestic to be successful.  $80 million domestic might be a home run for Sony.

Fair point.

I hope you guys aren't assuming that the movie studios rake in anywhere close to 100% of the box office receipts because they clearly do not.  

Not sure what the foreign box office receipts will be on this movie here, but if they spent $42M on the production costs alone, any bets they probably also spent the same amount if not more on promotion and advertising.  

[divad]

8 hours ago, valiantman said:

I think it's weird how 1992 books like Harbinger #1 and Rai #0 are from 28 years ago, but when they were new (in 1992) the 28 year old books at that time were books like Amazing Spider-Man #14 and Avengers #4.

Books like Amazing Spider-Man #50 are closer in age to Harbinger #1 than Harbinger #1 is to anything on the shelf new today.

The first Spider-Man movie appeared when Spider-Man was 30 years old. Superman got his Christopher Reeve movie when the character had been around 40 years. 

Batman the movie arrived when Batman was 50.  Bloodshot gets a movie at age 28. 

Well . . . it just may have something to do with the advanced technology  Criminy, the special effects in Supes One were freakin' sparklers.