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BEWARE OF PAYPAL NOW RIPPING CUSTOMERS OFF ON REFUNDS...... (STARTED 11-1-2019)
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64 posts in this topic

I just had to share this because it just cost me 450 dollars today!!!!

I paid a friend I know well with Paypal on November 3rd........... (I could have sent a check but I wanted him to get his payment sooner)

so I thought i sent him Paypal quickly as friends and family but I didn't realize they actually changed their settings on their Paypal payment pages now, and i unknowingly sent it as a purchase and not friends and family..... (as you now have to go through 2 more steps to send friends and family now that you didn't have to do before.)

I told my friend to simply refund it back to me so i can send it friends and family.......and when he sent the funds back to me on 11-3.......8 days later.. I'm STILL WAITING for the funds to be refunded back to me,...but on top of that Paypal ALSO took 450 dollars from HIM for the 15k payment he refunded back to me)

I assumed Paypal just made an honest mistake somehow, but I was wrong, as I called and was told by Paypal over the phone yesterday (Monday) that they just made a new policy change starting 11-1-2019 that any (non friends and family) refund for  "ANY REASON".....all Paypal Fees they keep...PERIOD!

and again.........I'm STILL waiting for the funds to be put back into my account from the "first" Paypal payment i made, since i had sent him two 15k payments (with the first being refunded)

This makes me seriously want to completely get rid of using Paypal and only doing credit card dealings with my overseas and USA customers who cant sent checks or do wire payments.

Has anyone else experienced this yet?

I know it was a SHOCK to me today, as i had to pay my friend 450 dollars for his Paypal fees he lost, on TOP of the refunded Paypal payment I still have not received back yet...... 8 days later!

I asked the Paypal guy how he feels working for a company that now actually STEALS MONEY FROM ITS CUSTOMERS??? 

(I know it's not this guy's fault directly...) But I just wanted him to tell his bosses that his company is a sham as of today in my book and they will lose a LOT of business and money i have been giving them for many years!

 

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4 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

I responded over on the L since I saw it there first.

YellowMusicRoom email ID
(since you often say people on this board hide behind screen names, and I have always used my real name here.)

I am proud to stand behind my real name.

sincerly,

grapeape

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New policy?

Bad policy!!!

If you intended to send it as friends and family and simply processed the transfer in error the right thing to do PayPal is refund the fees. 
 

I feel like they are playing hardball with you Mike because of the dollar amount. They are presuming this was a sale no matter how you try to explain it to them.

Then they are hiding behind the new “policy.” They clearly are not considering   the business you’ve conducted with them.

This is a shame.

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16 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

I responded over on the L since I saw it there first.

YellowMusicRoom email ID
(since you often say people on this board hide behind screen names, and I have always used my real name here.)

you are one of the rare ones on here who do...Is it Eric if my memory hasnt gone yet? 

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1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Were you using Paypal to buy something from your friend...?

To this point PayPal has allowed you to choose friends and family or show as business purchase. 
 

Sounds like they are standing by policy and are not admitting they want to charge Mike. presume it was a biz trans because of the dollar amount and Mikes line of business.
 

I would be ticked off 

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Don't let them hand cuff your business. There's other reliable options now for transferring money/making payments (Zelle, Venmo, etc). If Paypal wants to change policy and draw a hard line (especially with a longtime user), i say screw them and move on. 

 

*Obligatory "always double check before you send money" lol. Especially 15k O.o

Edited by awayne83
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Not a complaint about their refund policy, but, I bought some art from a European gallery this week and am a bit appalled by PayPal's fees.  First, the exchange rate spread (EUR to USD) amounted to a whopping 4.15%!  When I sent a bank wire to another European vendor over the summer, the exchange rate mark-up was closer to 1% IIRC.  Anyway, since both my PP confirmation & receipt said that "You are sending X dollars" and "Seller is getting Y euros", I assumed that this huge 4.15% fee must include PP's actual fee (to cover credit card processing as well) as well.  But, no!  The seller received Y euros...minus another 4.9%!!  WTF?  How on earth in 2019 can it cost more than 9% in fees to send an electronic payment in euros?? rantrant

Anyway, the seller was expecting Y euros and so I just sent over some additional funds to make up the gaping hole caused by PayPal's fees.  The exchange rate PayPal charged was $1.1474/euro, whereas the actual spot rate was $1.1016 at the time.  Now, maybe those of you who buy regularly from overseas are used to these fees, but, in a world where profit margins are being squeezed out of most everything (due to technological disruption, globalization, too-cheap monetary policy, etc.) - heck, the major online stock brokers recently stopped charging commissions FFS - to see PayPal lording over charging gaudy fees like it's 1999 is shocking. 

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5 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

How on earth in 2019 can it cost more than 9% in fees to send an electronic payment in euros?? 

It's much better to pay direct with a credit card, if possible, than placing the PP skin on top and them stepping on it too.

As to "how on earth in 2019"...I think part of the answer might be how much friction the ECB pushes down for non-SWIFT ;), I figure it's a bit like state gasoline tax, a generally little known number that actually does tend to move the needle by a fair amount (or % let's say).

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9 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Not a complaint about their refund policy, but, I bought some art from a European gallery this week and am a bit appalled by PayPal's fees.  First, the exchange rate spread (EUR to USD) amounted to a whopping 4.15%!  When I sent a bank wire to another European vendor over the summer, the exchange rate mark-up was closer to 1% IIRC.  Anyway, since both my PP confirmation & receipt said that "You are sending X dollars" and "Seller is getting Y euros", I assumed that this huge 4.15% fee must include PP's actual fee (to cover credit card processing as well) as well.  But, no!  The seller received Y euros...minus another 4.9%!!  WTF?  How on earth in 2019 can it cost more than 9% in fees to send an electronic payment in euros?? rantrant

Anyway, the seller was expecting Y euros and so I just sent over some additional funds to make up the gaping hole caused by PayPal's fees.  The exchange rate PayPal charged was $1.1474/euro, whereas the actual spot rate was $1.1016 at the time.  Now, maybe those of you who buy regularly from overseas are used to these fees, but, in a world where profit margins are being squeezed out of most everything (due to technological disruption, globalization, too-cheap monetary policy, etc.) - heck, the major online stock brokers recently stopped charging commissions FFS - to see PayPal lording over charging gaudy fees like it's 1999 is shocking. 

Yes.   This is an everyday occurrence for those of us outside the US. 

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6 minutes ago, vodou said:

It's much better to pay direct with a credit card, if possible, than placing the PP skin on top and them stepping on it too.

For sure.  Had I been aware that the all-in fees were going to be this high (I just totaled up the two payments and it actually cost me 9.65% (!!!) in total PayPal mark-ups), I would have insisted on sending a wire as I have always done in the past when buying from overseas.  

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Paypal is a ripoff at the best of times, but they should absolutely be your last option for international transactions.  They've been coasting for years on effectively having a monopoly on paying for Ebay purchases. 

For domestic US, if you have the money in your bank account, Zelle is free for some banks.  You can accept payment via your email.  But a word of warning: Zelle is notoriously prone to identity fraud, e.g. by phishing attacks where someone forges an email from you for payment but with the email modified in subtle ways.  Once someone has the payment, there's no way to get it back (unlike Paypal, but Paypal lays you open to chargeback fraud if you're a seller).

For international, there are several better alternatives.  I've used TransferWise, they have a clever scheme for reducing currency exchange charges by matching flows in one direction (e.g. US$ -> Euro) with flows in the other direction (Euro -> US$) within their payments network, in the best case avoiding the currency markets altogether, so they give better exchange rates than your local bank.  You do need to link your bank account to their system, money is transferred by bank transfer (and you have to pay for that), and I've learned more than I want to know about how ludicrously insecure US bank accounts are, but this is what happens when the industry writes the regulations.  ETA: Just to be clear, payee receives payment via transfer into their bank account, they do not need to be in the TransferWise network.

Another alternative for international is Xoom, but they are owned by Paypal, so I assume that once they've driven the smaller outfits out of business, their business plan is to be as egregious as Paypal, so I will give them a miss.

Edited by Taylor G
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25 minutes ago, Taylor G said:

They've been coasting for years on effectively having a monopoly on paying for Ebay purchases. 

The monopoly ended a while ago, I think maybe a year now? You can settle eBay buys direct through credit and debit card. I'm not feeling good about trusting them with my personal bank information though, so I don't give them that.

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28 minutes ago, Taylor G said:

Another alternative for international is Xoom, but they are owned by Paypal, so I assume that once they've driven the smaller outfits out of business, their business plan is to be as egregious as Paypal, so I will give them a miss.

Likewise Venmo, I believe.

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5 hours ago, grapeape said:

To this point PayPal has allowed you to choose friends and family or show as business purchase. 

That's never been true. 

"You must not use the “send money to a friend or family member” feature in your PayPal account when you are paying for goods or services."

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full?locale.x=en_US#sending-money

Not that we could ever know, but I wonder how much money Paypal has lost by people using "Paypal Personal/friends and family" payments since they added the feature, and if that money would have made any difference to policy changes today.

Don't get me wrong: what Paypal is doing is scummy, and I hope they go down in the flames they've deserved to go down in for two decades...but two wrongs and all.

 

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46 minutes ago, vodou said:

The monopoly ended a while ago, I think maybe a year now? You can settle eBay buys direct through credit and debit card. I'm not feeling good about trusting them with my personal bank information though, so I don't give them that.

I have the very sneaking suspicion...not quite proven yet, but tested...that eBay is pulling the same stunt through their "managed payments" system, which eventually everyone will be on.

I issued a small refund...$25....and have yet to see the fee for that amount refunded to me.

If that's the case...we're in for some rough times.

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7 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

what Paypal is doing is scummy, and I hope they go down in the flames they've deserved to go down in for two decades...

Before we get ahead of ourselves let's also acknowledge that the early (not just PP) innovators of online money transfers, particularly those with sender protection features, are -more than anything else- what added a zero to end of nearly every piece of comic art over the last twenty years too. Newbs are paying a price for that, but we old fogeys (and Mike lol) with old collections now cashing out, or those that were so profitable working the systems transactionally that they could retire early from their day jobs and go full-time dealing (Mike :) ) have benefited -immensely.

Anybody remember sending checks and money orders for art, to unknown eBay handles and...crossing your fingers? This, knowing your only recourse was a pointless call to the FBI and pursuing the matter in small claims court against, most often a jurisdiction your court had no enforcement options in. Uh huh. That was awesome and it's why the hobby, essentially grew zero in the 1990s.

14 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I wonder how much money Paypal has lost by people using "Paypal Personal/friends and family" payments

Anybody that's ever done this, and most of us have (right?!), haven't a leg to stand on here. We're all part of the problem and cannot -in good conscience- cast the first stone.

Now that whole good conscience thing, I'm not sure that's widespread ;)

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