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BEWARE OF PAYPAL NOW RIPPING CUSTOMERS OFF ON REFUNDS...... (STARTED 11-1-2019)
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64 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, vodou said:
18 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

what Paypal is doing is scummy, and I hope they go down in the flames they've deserved to go down in for two decades...

Before we get ahead of ourselves let's also acknowledge that the early (not just PP) innovators of online money transfers, particularly those with sender protection features, are -more than anything else- what added a zero to end of nearly every piece of comic art over the last twenty years too

Who's getting ahead of themselves? That's wonderful that Paypal and other online payments processors...like Bidpay, Billpoint, and the like...enabled a vibrant market...but that doesn't change or excuse the general scumminess of the company, nor their *just barely legal* (and frequently blatantly illegal) activities over the last two decades...none of which was necessary to doing what they do.

Paypal and eBay have had multiple judgments against them, particularly for shielding themselves from having to deal with customers. The horror stories of people's Paypal accounts being frozen, and losing access to their money, sometimes for many months, often forever...are legion.

6 minutes ago, vodou said:

Anybody that's ever done this, and most of us have (right?!), haven't a leg to stand on here. We're all part of the problem and cannot -in good conscience- cast the first stone.

Now that whole good conscience thing, I'm not sure that's widespread ;)

I'm not sure why someone wouldn't have a leg to stand on when calling out the fact that using Paypal's free service for buying goods and services is both explicitly against their terms and stealing. If one uses a service, one ought to pay for said service.

I'm not sure if that's the case here...I don't see an answer from the OP...but if it is, then it deserves mentioning.

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4 hours ago, delekkerste said:

Not a complaint about their refund policy, but, I bought some art from a European gallery this week and am a bit appalled by PayPal's fees.  First, the exchange rate spread (EUR to USD) amounted to a whopping 4.15%!  When I sent a bank wire to another European vendor over the summer, the exchange rate mark-up was closer to 1% IIRC.  Anyway, since both my PP confirmation & receipt said that "You are sending X dollars" and "Seller is getting Y euros", I assumed that this huge 4.15% fee must include PP's actual fee (to cover credit card processing as well) as well.  But, no!  The seller received Y euros...minus another 4.9%!!  WTF?  How on earth in 2019 can it cost more than 9% in fees to send an electronic payment in euros?? rantrant

Anyway, the seller was expecting Y euros and so I just sent over some additional funds to make up the gaping hole caused by PayPal's fees.  The exchange rate PayPal charged was $1.1474/euro, whereas the actual spot rate was $1.1016 at the time.  Now, maybe those of you who buy regularly from overseas are used to these fees, but, in a world where profit margins are being squeezed out of most everything (due to technological disruption, globalization, too-cheap monetary policy, etc.) - heck, the major online stock brokers recently stopped charging commissions FFS - to see PayPal lording over charging gaudy fees like it's 1999 is shocking. 

This is a disturbing trend.

1) Unexpected fees

2) Awkward transactions; in your case Gene you had to go back in pocket to make up for the sellers shortage. Mike also had to go back in pocket to make up for his payees unexpected fees.

You are on to something. We are being squeezed by fee vendors and state taxes and BP etc. The margin for error is wafer thin. That is in obtaining art be it personal collection or eventual resale all of this nonsense has to be factored in.

Twenty years ago this was fun. I and twenty-thirty of my friends had clear advantages to buying and reselling art. Fees were lower and comps be damned anything I bought from eBay or auction, I would eventually find an interested party and clean up. 

I sold an Infantino Batman last year. Paid $1500: At the beginning of 2000 that page easily doubles. It sold for $1550. After fees paid I actually lost money.
As you say there’s a lot of factors making this “thing of ours” a tad more complicated.

Im figuring this out as I go. It’s hard to find dealer pricing mistakes as they have gone crazy with post it notes and inquire. Prices you see listed are meant to factor in the trade offers and haggling that’s going to take place.

Buyers beware. I love it though. Just have to stay ahead of the game.

Edited by grapeape
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45 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Who's getting ahead of themselves?

Anybody that only looks at things one-dimensionally.

46 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'm not sure why someone wouldn't have a leg to stand on when calling out the fact that using Paypal's free service for buying goods and services is both explicitly against their terms and stealing. If one uses a service, one ought to pay for said service.

I agree. Re-read please, because you've misunderstood that I stated exactly that.

Now then, if one were (still?) engaging in certain gray market price support practices with assistance: it's not hard to see that money would need to move to even up with those assistants (non-consigning folks allowing their names/shipping addresses to be used for instance). We can be friends of people with big houses without necessarily having a big house ourselves. This new friction on such activities might not make them worthwhile or as worthwhile as previously ;)

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Just now, vodou said:
56 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Who's getting ahead of themselves?

Anybody that only looks at things one-dimensionally.

I agree completely!

2 minutes ago, vodou said:
58 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'm not sure why someone wouldn't have a leg to stand on when calling out the fact that using Paypal's free service for buying goods and services is both explicitly against their terms and stealing. If one uses a service, one ought to pay for said service.

I agree. Re-read please, because you've misunderstood that I stated exactly that.

I don't think so, but maybe. hm

In any event, it's pretty black and white. Using Paypal "friends and family" for purchasing goods or services is using their service without paying for it.

I sympathize with the people who are being negatively affected by Paypal's (and potentially eBay's) new policy, and encourage people to find other resources, rather than just taking from Paypal and justifying it because it "promotes business." Stealing is stealing, after all, and stealing hurts the people who "don't live in big houses" the most, because stealing gives people unfair advantage in the market.

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10 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I don't think so, but maybe. hm

Definitely. Still mis-reading/understanding if it's not clear.

11 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I sympathize with the people

I don't because it's upfront and you can opt out if desired. My sympathy always lies with those given no choices (monopoly situations).

15 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

and encourage people to find other resources, rather than just taking from Paypal and justifying it because it "promotes business." Stealing is stealing, after all, and stealing hurts the people who "don't live in big houses" the most, because stealing gives people unfair advantage in the market.

Yes. We can all go all the way back to check/m.o. or somewhere in between (frictionless online payment services, etc) but should also expect push-back from the ignorant and/or decreased margins (gross) and volume. Take away ease of doing business, even a bit, things will slow a bit. But the win may outweigh the loss or may not even matter much (rounding errors and such) in practice. That's from the seller side. From the buyer side, how much risk are you willing to take sending no-recourse payments? Because that's what the alternatives are. PP isn't making this move in a vacuum either, don't be surprised to find your favorite (and maybe all too) credit card eventually take a similar stance. "Returns" are a drag on the entire economy, justified or not. Little known fact but WalMart and Amazon "profile" folks on their returns history and will not allow them (or very rarely will choose to cease doing any business with one at all) if returns get outside their acceptable "loss in service of customer service" model. Money movement industry (aka banking) may be seeing the same thing and moving toward protecting themselves here, in a slightly different way. Those 'captured fees' are a disincentive for sure!

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4 minutes ago, vodou said:
23 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I don't think so, but maybe. hm

Definitely. Still mis-reading/understanding if it's not clear.

Maybe. I disagree, but who knows. hm

4 minutes ago, vodou said:
23 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I sympathize with the people who are being negatively affected by Paypal's (and potentially eBay's) new policy, and encourage people to find other resources, 

I don't because it's upfront and you can opt out if desired. My sympathy always lies with those given no choices (monopoly situations).

Hence the "encourage people to find other resources." Thankfully there ARE other resources...for now. That's been one of the main complaints against eBay and Paypal for 2+ decades: they squashed competition, and were allowed to *become* monopolies.

7 minutes ago, vodou said:

Yes. We can all go all the way back to check/m.o. or somewhere in between (frictionless online payment services, etc) but should also expect push-back from the ignorant and/or decreased margins (gross) and volume.

Oh, there's no need to go back to checks/mo (although if the payment processors don't get their act together, they will incentivize people to do just that.) You can use payment processing services without stealing from them. It's not an either/or situation. As I already alluded, if this practice is allowed to take place (meaning, competition is squashed by regulatory manipulation), then people will go back to whatever payment is the least costly, in absolute costs (cash, time, effort, etc.)

The point is: stealing services isn't ever the solution, regardless of any other consideration.

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Just now, vodou said:
4 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I disagree, but who knows.

What do you think I wrote? Working with that will be much easier than pushing the stone up the hill lol

That's still pushing the stone up the hill. Gentle people would explain how they felt they had been misunderstood/misinterpreted, since they're the ones who are claiming to see it. Perhaps it would be more expeditious to agree to disagree. :foryou:

 

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2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That's never been true. 

"You must not use the “send money to a friend or family member” feature in your PayPal account when you are paying for goods or services."

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full?locale.x=en_US#sending-money

Not that we could ever know, but I wonder how much money Paypal has lost by people using "Paypal Personal/friends and family" payments since they added the feature, and if that money would have made any difference to policy changes today.

Don't get me wrong: what Paypal is doing is scummy, and I hope they go down in the flames they've deserved to go down in for two decades...but two wrongs and all.

 

Yeah I didn’t say that correctly. I’m really implying that friends and family is misused often. I feel that’s why they are holding on to Mikes Fees.Their policy yes gives them grounds but my opinion, they suspect the transaction was business so they are not being flexible.

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7 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

By the way....none of these policies is secret, so those unaware of them, but still choosing to do business with Paypal ought to make themselves aware prior to transacting, no?

You are correct. 

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58 minutes ago, vodou said:

Anybody that only looks at things one-dimensionally.

I agree. Re-read please, because you've misunderstood that I stated exactly that.

Now then, if one were (still?) engaging in certain gray market price support practices with assistance: it's not hard to see that money would need to move to even up with those assistants (non-consigning folks allowing their names/shipping addresses to be used for instance). We can be friends of people with big houses without necessarily having a big house ourselves. This new friction on such activities might not make them worthwhile or as worthwhile as previously ;)

Bingo!!!!!!

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5 hours ago, vodou said:

It's much better to pay direct with a credit card, if possible, than placing the PP skin on top and them stepping on it too.

As to "how on earth in 2019"...I think part of the answer might be how much friction the ECB pushes down for non-SWIFT ;), I figure it's a bit like state gasoline tax, a generally little known number that actually does tend to move the needle by a fair amount (or % let's say).

Screw it!!! From now on the only way to go is cash sent through the mail. I remember grandma used to tape a fiver on the inside of my birthday card. She mailed It from Boca Raton. Never got lost!!!!

if it was good enough for gam gam it’s good enough for this here art collector.

Vodou, what size envelope will I need to mail $700,000 cash to Heritage for that Batman 251?

 

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3 minutes ago, grapeape said:

Vodou, what size envelope will I need to mail $700,000 cash to Heritage for that Batman 251?

 

So much work, any ol' Sal Buscema panel page -80s, not 70s!- should settle it.

Change back is a pain though, break the panels up, hold back a few for yourself ;)

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2 hours ago, grapeape said:

Screw it!!! From now on the only way to go is cash sent through the mail. I remember grandma used to tape a fiver on the inside of my birthday card. She mailed It from Boca Raton. Never got lost!!!!

if it was good enough for gam gam it’s good enough for this here art collector.

Vodou, what size envelope will I need to mail $700,000 cash to Heritage for that Batman 251?

 

Years ago, when I sold the BWS story, “Red Nails”, I was paid in cash sent via fed ex in their letter envelopes.

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