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BEWARE OF PAYPAL NOW RIPPING CUSTOMERS OFF ON REFUNDS...... (STARTED 11-1-2019)
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Started by romitaman,

64 posts in this topic

grapeape

grapeape

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, artdealer said:

Years ago, when I sold the BWS story, “Red Nails”, I was paid in cash sent via fed ex in their letter envelopes.

Classic! A ballsy move. Glad the cash arrived safe. 

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cstojano

cstojano

Posted
Posted

Its just a matter of time with both Paypal and eBay. All it takes is that one transaction that makes you walk away. Mine was a 900 dollar Global Shipping Program scam where the "buyer" kept the items, got his 900 dollars back, and eBay kept their 10% fee. Paypal was no help at all, of course, and they kept their fees as well. I only spent 2 months arguing and escalating that nonsense. 

I do wish sellers were a bit more aware of the fees though. I sent 5200 Euros to a guy in France last week and he was shocked they took 255 Euros out. I didn't think I needed to explain this. And of course no refund was possible because those fees were not refundable, so we split the difference. But ebay, I loathe them so much I have yet to sell another item through them (and the is starting to pile up). They still have the best reach, IMO. 

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vodou

vodou

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

What ever happened to Cashiers checks and certified mail?

Exactly what I sent to an artist a month ago (regular mail though), mid four figures for a nice chunky stack of art in return. "Not PayPal" knocked 15% off the price and added free shipping. This not because of saving the fees (or avoiding capital gains reporting) but because no "BS hassles down the road" re: charge-backs or other forms of whining and hostage-holding. This all before the latest from PayPal too re: returns/fees. The artist was just happy to do the deal and that be that, exactly the same as cash 'n carry at a convention. Likewise great on my end too, as I'm not a charge-back person unless the situation is egregious* so I wasn't gaining anything through PayPal "protection" and was losing negotiating power. You can't do this with everybody, but this was a pro artist with much more to lose by gaming me (reputation-wise) than the value of the deal.

 

*"Brand New" books -real books, not comics- priced to condition that arrive obviously used...they go back every single time. If I wanted used I'd pay $2.78 for a garbage reading copy!

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BCarter27

BCarter27

Posted
Posted

So this thread is about the OP scamming PayPal out of their service fees and then complaining about it? :roflmao:

The PayPal changes regarding not refunding the fees on a return were announced months ago. And it wasn't exactly fine print. They sent out a dedicated eblast about it.

I don't know why anyone, particularly a dealer, would risk their PayPal account being potentially canceled due to not following the terms regarding F&F vs. Goods & Services. 3% is nothing. I frequently offer to make up the difference if a seller balks, particularly someone I haven't dealt with before, just so I can have that Buyer's Protection. You know, the thing that revolutionized online trading and made all of these high prices possible (as @vodoualready pointed out.) I only deal with Goods and Services. It's just not worth the grief to do otherwise.

There are times when a wire transfer is fine, but the circle of trust has to be in place and you have to know the other party. Even then, things go wrong outside of everyone's control. That 3% is Peace of Mind.

File this under Ridiculous... right next to not covering or arranging for your own shipping. (i.e. sending a label with Signature Required so that Collector's Insurance will cover it.)

5-figure pieces and then people cheap out on logistics and terms... makes no sense to me.

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grapeape

grapeape

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, BCarter27 said:

So this thread is about the OP scamming PayPal out of their service fees and then complaining about it? :roflmao:

The PayPal changes regarding not refunding the fees on a return were announced months ago. And it wasn't exactly fine print. They sent out a dedicated eblast about it.

I don't know why anyone, particularly a dealer, would risk their PayPal account being potentially canceled due to not following the terms regarding F&F vs. Goods & Services. 3% is nothing. I frequently offer to make up the difference if a seller balks, particularly someone I haven't dealt with before, just so I can have that Buyer's Protection. You know, the thing that revolutionized online trading and made all of these high prices possible (as @vodoualready pointed out.) I only deal with Goods and Services. It's just not worth the grief to do otherwise.

There are times when a wire transfer is fine, but the circle of trust has to be in place and you have to know the other party. Even then, things go wrong outside of everyone's control. That 3% is Peace of Mind.

File this under Ridiculous... right next to not covering or arranging for your own shipping. (i.e. sending a label with Signature Required so that Collector's Insurance will cover it.)

5-figure pieces and then people cheap out on logistics and terms... makes no sense to me.

I don't want to say your right. Especially about what the thread starter may have been doing "scamming" paypal. He says it was friends and family entered incorrectly I'll give him the BOD. You do make very valid points about the value added benefits paypal helped bring to this thing of ours. Also no question changes in fee policy were clearly disclosed. I empathize because I believe each one of us has been in that situation where we didn't realize a new policy was in place and it cost us.

Nevertheless it is incumbent on everyone to know the :rulez:of the game and when they change. Mostly well done BCarter27 but forgive me I find "scamming" too harsh. I always value your insight and that won't change.

With respect grapeape

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John E.

John E.

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, grapeape said:

I don't want to say your right. Especially about what the thread starter may have been doing "scamming" paypal. He says it was friends and family entered incorrectly I'll give him the BOD. You do make very valid points about the value added benefits paypal helped bring to this thing of ours. Also no question changes in fee policy were clearly disclosed. I empathize because I believe each one of us has been in that situation where we didn't realize a new policy was in place and it cost us.

Nevertheless it is incumbent on everyone to know the :rulez:of the game and when they change. Mostly well done BCarter27 but forgive me I find "scamming" too harsh. I always value your insight and that won't change.

With respect grapeape

And just because it’s the new terms of services it doesn’t mean that it’s fair or... legal. 

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grapeape

grapeape

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Jay Olie Espy said:

And just because it’s the new terms of services it doesn’t mean that it’s fair or... legal. 

That's true and that spirit guided my initial response to Mike's experience. I'm not thrilled with the changes. I believe the holding of fees collected in error should be returned. I'm not a legal expert. Let's see if anything is done about it.

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Rick2you2

Rick2you2

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, grapeape said:

That's true and that spirit guided my initial response to Mike's experience. I'm not thrilled with the changes. I believe the holding of fees collected in error should be returned. I'm not a legal expert. Let's see if anything is done about it.

If the terms of service are disclosed prior to use, then it is a rare instance when they are not upheld in law (although it can happen). Don’t forget PayPal did provide the service; it did not do anything wrong. This isn’t like sales taxes, where the return of the sold item necessarily requires a return of the tax paid.

Let me add that PayPal does provide Friends and Family for free. PayPal bears the cost of doing so as an expense. If it is used a lot, the business choice it has to make is to raise rates elsewhere or discontinue the service (as well as make ever larger profits to satisfy its shareholders).

 I generally like to pay by cash or credit card, but it isn’t a big deal to get a bank check and send it by certified mail. If I had to do it a lot, I may think differently, but for occasional use, why waste the fees? 

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vodou

vodou

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, grapeape said:

Gee Vodou......that's harsh.I know you're just playing though......:smile:

Neither harsh nor playing: one just never knows except that things most of us would find disagreeable (or illegal even) do happen and it's often a surprise who the specific person doing these things ends up being. Sociopaths and psychopaths can be quite charming at times and it can take many years before the veil is completely dropped.

I like to refer back to the example of Bill Mastro/Mastronet. The inner circle that knew him very well mostly knew what the jig was or had a not-so-fresh feeling about him in some way or another. But some levels out to the occasional and maybe even regular but still average collector/customer...he was a real nice guy, all bells 'n whistles, a great addition to an already great hobby. Then it all unraveled and a lot of people were really surprised, and a few weren't. For what it's worth, legally a criminal connection hasn't been proven to exist, yet, between Mastro and PSA/DNA but to the layperson there remains a rather strong stink on the grading firm.

What does any of the above have to do with this thread? Very little at the moment, and probably not at all. All we "know" is what we've been told by one of the two primary parties, Mike (sender). The other party (receiver) is not named and has not given their side of things; what the $30,000 cumulatively is "for" has also not identified. What we "know" (have been told) may not even be the truth or the complete truth. Whatever. It's a lot of money, $30k, about 60% of what the average individual in this country grosses (not nets) in an entire calendar year. That raises flags, for the average person (outside our rather rich "hobby" lol ) and authorities.

More to the point, was Mike circumventing fees or not? Either the $30k (or some part) was payment "for something" or it was "a gift". The one is fine (and a costly error on Mike's part), the other is in violation of PayPal's contract with Mike. We don't know because Mike didn't include that information here. Oversight or intentional omission that? Mike could clear that up easily but I understand why he wouldn't want to. It is his private business, though he also made it everybody's business by posting his whine publicly. And of course, as soon as he hit "send" inside PayPal for the $15,000 friends/family, he made it the government's business.

If this was all truly a "gift" (no expectation of anything in return) no biggie, a $450 mistake for Mike. If not (expectation of something in return)...then a review of anti-social behavior according to DSM-V may be of interest.

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grapeape

grapeape

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, vodou said:

Neither harsh nor playing: one just never knows except that things most of us would find disagreeable (or illegal even) do happen and it's often a surprise who the specific person doing these things ends up being. Sociopaths and psychopaths can be quite charming at times and it can take many years before the veil is completely dropped.

I like to refer back to the example of Bill Mastro/Mastronet. The inner circle that knew him very well mostly knew what the jig was or had a not-so-fresh feeling about him in some way or another. But some levels out to the occasional and maybe even regular but still average collector/customer...he was a real nice guy, all bells 'n whistles, a great addition to an already great hobby. Then it all unraveled and a lot of people were really surprised, and a few weren't. For what it's worth, legally a criminal connection hasn't been proven to exist, yet, between Mastro and PSA/DNA but to the layperson there remains a rather strong stink on the grading firm.

What does any of the above have to do with this thread? Very little at the moment, and probably not at all. All we "know" is what we've been told by one of the two primary parties, Mike (sender). The other party (receiver) is not named and has not given their side of things; what the $30,000 cumulatively is "for" has also not identified. What we "know" (have been told) may not even be the truth or the complete truth. Whatever. It's a lot of money, $30k, about 60% of what the average individual in this country grosses (not nets) in an entire calendar year. That raises flags, for the average person (outside our rather rich "hobby" lol ) and authorities.

More to the point, was Mike circumventing fees or not? Either the $30k (or some part) was payment "for something" or it was "a gift". The one is fine (and a costly error on Mike's part), the other is in violation of PayPal's contract with Mike. We don't know because Mike didn't include that information here. Oversight or intentional omission that? Mike could clear that up easily but I understand why he wouldn't want to. It is his private business, though he also made it everybody's business by posting his whine publicly. And of course, as soon as he hit "send" inside PayPal for the $15,000 friends/family, he made it the government's business.

If this was all truly a "gift" (no expectation of anything in return) no biggie, a $450 mistake for Mike. If not (expectation of something in return)...then a review of anti-social behavior according to DSM-V may be of interest.

Well for nearly every reason you have stated I stand by the assertion that we should tread lightly on throwing out there nefarious intentions and potential AML violations.

A transfer of funds for any amount can trigger a Suspicious Activity Referral if the behavior is deemed untoward for any reason. There is no cash involved In this transaction so anything over 10 K does not apply as an automatic reporting in this case. PayPal transfers and bank wire transfers from a traceable account are different than cash deposits into an account.
 

Actually to avoid AML reporting the worst thing you can do is reverse a transaction. Huge red flags. The point of Mike’s post was 1) I made a mistake 2) PayPal is keeping fees placing profit over a long term good client because the policy changed.

Any individual or business can have an unusual or suspicious activity reported by the bank to the IRS. It has nothing to do solely with a dollar amount but more the behavior of conductor or nature of transaction.

Mikes intent is likely irrelevant in this case on the face of it. He did not expect to pay fees at all. He paid fees and rules say he can’t get them back. PayPal did not to our knowledge say Mike can’t have his money back because they see a pattern of abuse of friends and family transactions that should have counted as business.
 

it appears on the face of it Mike and friend paid fees because that’s the rules and PayPal asserts its not able to be flexible. Fair enough? Most folks hate fees so I don’t know how objective folks can be. Do you scream at your bank teller when you see a non sufficient funds fee or any fee? Are you satisfied when the bank tells you its in the rules that if A happens then B you pay fees end of discussion?

if anyone reading this had a similar experience but actually received a PayPal refund After policy change  please chime in. That would tell us a lot about what PayPal is thinking. If everyone truly is treated the same (that’s the policy too bad!) then PayPal users should weigh value of (see BCarter27) vs Mike’s position (burn the mother down.)
 

 

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fenip

fenip

Posted
Posted

Encountered something similar.  Bought and paid some art with PayPal (not FF). The seller couldn't find the art. So I picked a smaller piece and got a partial refund.  Besides the fact it took a while to get my money back, PayPal charged 67,67 euro's (nice number) on the 1425 USD the seller refunded me...

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Randall Ries

Randall Ries

Posted
Posted (edited)

I'm so sorry, but the OP summed it up succinctly: "but I didn't realize they actually changed their settings on their Paypal payment pages now,"

We run a small business and have transactions from clients who pay via PayPal. Always have to tell them to use Friends and Family. When that changed we noticed.

In my mind, PayPal is a convenience. Always has been. Keeps me from having to go to the bank for money orders, writing checks etc.

My purchases via PayPal are usually small. I can tell you that if I were to spend $15k for original art or a comic book, I'd be heading right to Western Union or using my credit card. The times we live in, middle men like PayPal will ultimately turn into criminals and try telling us it's business. Venmo isn't as popular as PayPal, but once Paypal starts losing business, they will be. Then Venmo will pull the same spoon.

Edited by Randall Ries
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