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Trimmed or not? Atlas war books on the Bay
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40 posts in this topic

Just now, James J Johnson said:

Without seeing the entire back cover of that War Action 9, I can't fully assess if what appears to be a spine roll seems normal, as to be expected on both front and back cover. It would be great to have front and back covers for all of these. Seeing just one side without the other paints only half the picture.

I agree, of course, but I don't own the number 9, only the 6.

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1 minute ago, 1950's war comics said:

i have an Atlas war comic that is 3/8 inch LARGER than any other i own lol 

I had an Atlas war issue that was 7 and 3/8ths inches wide at the top edge and 6 and 5/8" inches wide at the bottom! Most Silver age Marvels are similarly cut. Not perfectly square, the left to right size differing from mildly to when measured across the top, then across the bottom, though much less drastic then the example I cited above.

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7 hours ago, PopKulture said:

Here's the back cover to number 6 (click to view larger). I already read it, so the top edge isn't as starkly linear as when I received it:

49466404.78c7f97e.1600.jpg

I'd classify it as "exactly what I would expect to see with respect to back cover mechanics", after looking at the front cover. All edges look normally produced and are consistent with the front cover.

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5 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

I'd classify it as "exactly what I would expect to see with respect to back cover mechanics", after looking at the front cover. All edges look normally produced and are consistent with the front cover.

Thanks. I appreciate the input.  :foryou:

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I would trust JJJ as he has a sharp eye from what ive seen him post. but when I initially looked didn't think there was trimming on the middle book the back cover sticks out over the interior pages and looks to line up with how much of a spine twist/miscut there is so that's why I would not think trimming on that one 

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3 hours ago, Krismusic said:

I would trust JJJ as he has a sharp eye from what ive seen him post. but when I initially looked didn't think there was trimming on the middle book the back cover sticks out over the interior pages and looks to line up with how much of a spine twist/miscut there is so that's why I would not think trimming on that one 

The key to spotting something suspicious for trim is the overall vibe. The big picture. Viewing the whole, and applying your experience with viewing/handling countless books from the same time period. The way the edges line up on any one side, and how they line up as a whole. After seeing God only knows how many books, the anomalies will stand out, "this isn't right!" Those anomalies warranting a closer examination and analysis. You get an overall sense of the type of symmetry of the edges that is normally expected in standard production and when something goes against that grain, the vibe is thrown off like ripples in a dead calm lake! That's when you come in with the magnifying glass and extra lamination to do your hard forensics for trim and look for physical tells of it when strong suspicion arises.

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11 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

The key to spotting something suspicious for trim is the overall vibe. The big picture. 

I got a weird vibe when I saw the aforementioned factors seemingly lining up - the book being so short, the "fuzzy" edge, the little micro-cracking along the top edge where it looks like force was applied, and the sharp corner on the back cover. It was definitely enough to make me suspicious. That's why I decided to get a second opinion: In Boardies I Trust!  (thumbsu

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I feel your pain.... for many years I wouldn't submit Atlas comics to CGC because so many of them "looked" trimmed, even though they weren't. I'm talking about pedigree books where the history is known and local original owner books that are untouched. The cover dimensions in a title can vary significantly even from one issue to the next... nothing at all like the SA books from the 60's. You can look through the PhotoJournals, which have covers photographed to scale, and see some of the more dramatic variations with no trouble. Look at Marvel Tales 113 as an example, although there are many others. I'm not saying yours are or aren't trimmed, but the top one is the only one I'd be suspicious of. Bear in mind that ALL comics are trimmed as part of the production process.... so making a determination of secondary trimming is, in most cases, just guesswork. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

Edited by jimjum12
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On 11/21/2019 at 6:43 AM, jimjum12 said:

I feel your pain.... for many years I wouldn't submit Atlas comics to CGC because so many of them "looked" trimmed, even though they weren't. I'm talking about pedigree books where the history is known and local original owner books that are untouched. The cover dimensions in a title can vary significantly even from one issue to the next... nothing at all like the SA books from the 60's. You can look through the PhotoJournals, which have covers photographed to scale, and see some of the more dramatic variations with no trouble. Look at Marvel Tales 113 as an example, although there are many others. I'm not saying yours are or aren't trimmed, but the top one is the only one I'd be suspicious of. Bear in mind that ALL comics are trimmed as part of the production process.... so making a determination of secondary trimming is, in most cases, just guesswork. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

Exactly! Unless a book has unnaturally sharp corners in relation to overall condition, or is clearly chopped down both down horizontally and vertically, or has a completely straight edge to the pages on the right side, it's very difficult to assess if a books been trimmed or not just because it doesn't line up dimensionally with other books, even other copies of the same book. 

Timelys from around 1944-45 are even worse than Atlas for having the appearance of being trimmed when they are not. Sometimes they aren't much bigger than a modern, and are wildly inconsistent in width, varying as much as half an inch. Combined with common miscuts and misalignments, you end up with copies where the last letter on the logo is partially cut off. Many books like this have been slabbed with blue labels, even high grade copies, but if I saw them raw, I'd be certain they had been trimmed if I was unfamiliar with them.

Edited by rjpb
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great stuff!  Question for those of you with a good experienced eye for this; Atlas, Timely, SA Marvels are all mentioned, any opinions one way or the other on GA EC Horror books?  (I ask because this was a recent issue for me; it's off by comparable book by 1/8" both vertical and horizontal...)  I would think this was a relatively universal quality issue for ALL brands at the time due to common printing techniques/equipment/resources, and not more prevalent in one or two brands than the others, yes?  Note also, this was a Canadian edition, but I would not expect a sizing variation, or maybe there is?  (seems like a dumb question, but I had to ask...)  thanks.

 

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On 11/20/2019 at 12:23 PM, James J Johnson said:

The key to spotting something suspicious for trim is the overall vibe. The big picture. Viewing the whole, and applying your experience with viewing/handling countless books from the same time period. The way the edges line up on any one side, and how they line up as a whole. After seeing God only knows how many books, the anomalies will stand out, "this isn't right!" Those anomalies warranting a closer examination and analysis. You get an overall sense of the type of symmetry of the edges that is normally expected in standard production and when something goes against that grain, the vibe is thrown off like ripples in a dead calm lake! That's when you come in with the magnifying glass and extra lamination to do your hard forensics for trim and look for physical tells of it when strong suspicion arises.

This.

There's been many times when I've felt there were suspicious characteristics about certain books, but being suspicious and having definitive visual evidence are two different things.

I certainly do appreciate your attention to detail, however...  (thumbsu 

 

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1 hour ago, The Lions Den said:

This.

There's been many times when I've felt there were suspicious characteristics about certain books, but being suspicious and having definitive visual evidence are two different things.

I certainly do appreciate your attention to detail, however...  (thumbsu 

 

And it's the type of books that you've handled many of that build your perception of normal and abnormal, that is, books normally produced by the vintage machinery and those that are characteristically atypical! There's no substitute for the experience of handling thousands of books from original owner collections that were newsstand purchased, read, and then stored. It builds the same perception as assembly line quality control personnel who can spot the "imperfect" pieces passing by their eyes that to anyone else appears to be identical to the rest!

Handling thousands upon thousands of these original owner books from stored collections builds that subconscious perception of this.

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3 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

And it's the type of books that you've handled many of that build your perception of normal and abnormal, that is, books normally produced by the vintage machinery and those that are characteristically atypical! There's no substitute for the experience of handling thousands of books from original owner collections that were newsstand purchased, read, and then stored. It builds the same perception as assembly line quality control personnel who can spot the "imperfect" pieces passing by their eyes that to anyone else appears to be identical to the rest!

Handling thousands upon thousands of these original owner books from stored collections builds that subconscious perception of this.

 I've never actually thought much about it, but on some subliminal level I know this must be true. It's interesting to realize that over time your mind becomes subconsciously attuned to books that don't appear to be "correct" when compared to the other copies you've seen.

A fascinating observation, JJJ...

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2 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

 I've never actually thought much about it, but on some subliminal level I know this must be true. It's interesting to realize that over time your mind becomes subconsciously attuned to books that don't appear to be "correct" when compared to the other copies you've seen.

A fascinating observation, JJJ...

It's like anything else you've done or seen umpteen times. Though in this case the importance lies in that your sense of "normal", subconsciously, subliminally, and consciously, is based on the materials being pure, unadulterated, and first hand!. What better way to build this innate sense then from reviewing, handling, buying, unquestionably virgin books. Books that have sat in crates, or stacks, or on shelves, since first read and stored! Like Chuck for one. He had the opportunity to personally go through 20,000 virgin Golden age books that sat for 20+ years, nobody's hands upon them except Church's and his. You get used to that. Seeing these diamonds in the rough and one with freshly cut facets breezes by, you catch it in a nano-second. You see enough books in the rough and any that have been even slightly altered stand out to you like a quadruped with 5 legs!

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12 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

It's like anything else you've done or seen umpteen times. Though in this case the importance lies in that your sense of "normal", subconsciously, subliminally, and consciously, is based on the materials being pure, unadulterated, and first hand!. What better way to build this innate sense then from reviewing, handling, buying, unquestionably virgin books. Books that have sat in crates, or stacks, or on shelves, since first read and stored! Like Chuck for one. He had the opportunity to personally go through 20,000 virgin Golden age books that sat for 20+ years, nobody's hands upon them except Church's and his. You get used to that. Seeing these diamonds in the rough and one with freshly cut facets breezes by, you catch it in a nano-second. You see enough books in the rough and any that have been even slightly altered stand out to you like a quadruped with 5 legs!

Right on JJJ! And happy holidays to you...  (thumbsu

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