How comics broke Alan Moore's heart 3 3

[kav]

1 minute ago, Logan510 said:

And yes, I realize that among my gen x peers who weren’t getting laid in 1986 I’m in the minority.

[kav]

1980s were my best years-I had it all!

[Lazyboy]

3 hours ago, Ken Aldred said:

The only work of his that I don’t like is From Hell.  I didn’t read it under ideal conditions, as I had full-blown chicken pox at the time.  Both the story and art felt much too bleak and depressing for me.

 

Yeah, I prefer fun, happy stories about Jack the Ripper.

[Lazyboy]

15 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

I have a theory about Alan Moore fans 

 That's funny, I have a theory about people who don't like Alan Moore's work.

[Logan510]

3 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

 That's funny, I have a theory about people who don't like Alan Moore's work.

Oh look, if it isn't the answer to the question that no one ever asked.

Hi.

[Lazyboy]

3 hours ago, dupont2005 said:

I don’t disagree with Moore but by then he should have known. Indy publishers existed at the time and some boasted some good talent and some envelope pushing content, but probably couldn’t offer the payday DC did. Long term, if he had went through Eclipse and kept publishing rights, he’d be set today. Or maybe there’d have never been movie and TV deals. Or maybe the movie rights would have been sold in the 90’s for a pittance and the movie would be an embarrassment, who knows

Moore was perfectly fine with writing DCU stories while knowing he couldn't claim ownership of even the characters he created for those issues. The problem arose from something new that he couldn't have foreseen: the regularly printed collected edition (and DC's use of such to effectively steal work he actually owned).

[kav]

5 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Moore was perfectly fine with writing DCU stories while knowing he couldn't claim ownership of even the characters he created for those issues. The problem arose from something new that he couldn't have foreseen: the regularly printed collected edition (and DC's use of such to effectively steal work he actually owned).

I bet he really hates them after watchmen books-such good art-such miserable stories-

[kav]

42 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

And yes, I realize that among my gen x peers who weren’t getting laid in 1986 I’m in the minority.

Here's ol Kav in 1986

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

40 minutes ago, kav said:

Here's ol Kav in 1986

As for Moore. I do like some of his work and this does suck, however after everyone saw what happened to both Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster  ( and a bunch of others not as publicized) it is not like they didn't know what signing with either DC or Marvel would lead to in the future. 

Edited November 24, 2019 by onlyweaknesskryptonite

[kav]

[707comics]

For you @kav ... from the bleeding cool website (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/11/22/leah-moore-how-comics-broke-alan-moore/?utm_source=spotim&utm_medium=spotim_recirculation):

Leah Moore Tells Us All How Comics Broke Alan Moore

Posted on November 22, 2019 | by Rich Johnston | 

38

 Comment(s)

I have been an admirer of the work of Alan Moore, before I knew who he was, that he was the one who wrote my favourite Captain Britain and 2000AD stories. When I picked up Warrior Magazine and was reading it for V For Vendetta and Marvelman, they mentioned his name and what else he wrote, and something in my eleven-year-old brain clicked into place. Since then, I have always enjoyed his work across media, seen his talks, performance pieces, shows, programmes on the TV and radio, read his comics, novels, introductions, listened to his songs, interviews and watched his films. And I have often been baffled by how some people who only read one or two paragraphs pulled from old transcribed interviews (as I did here), seem unwilling to try and view these in a wider context. Or even listen to him speak to recognise his good humour and self-deprecatory stance that gives added nuance and context to those words. This is the man who wrote D.R. & Quinch, The Bojeffries Sagaand Jack B Quick, he’s a really funny guy, and it exasperates me that some people don’t acknowledge his use of irony and wordplay in much of what he says, and instead caricature him as some crazy old hermit screaming at clouds and worshipping a snake god – without recognising that his chosen deity was revealed as a hoax puppet even in Roman times. Because it’s funny, and clever and recognises that if you can’t, in some fashion, believe in the stories you make up from thin air, why would anyone else?

And then after this week’s highs and lows in that regard, someone who knows Alan better than pretty much anyone else, put the whole thing in a context I don’t think I’d ever even considered. That comics – especially superhero comics – broke Alan Moore’s heart. Just like Jack Kirby. His daughter, Leah Moore, a fine writer in her own right, laid it out on Twitter yesterday in a very personal way and I’ve had it ringing around my head since. We reprint her posts here with permission (emphasis, cuts and links are mine);

This whole “Alan Moore implores you to please vote and save our broken country from actual f-cking oblivion” might’ve landed better if his birthday had not been spent noting that he clearly has not read any of the many wonderful modern comics that he might actually rather enjoy. He has also clearly never watched any of the rather enjoyable comics-based movies, or experienced any of the joy, support or inspiration they bring to millions of people. He hasn’t sat next to a ten-year-old girl watching Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman for the first time.

The idea that the man who loved superhero stories so much he gave up his job and plunged recklessly into writing comics, which at that time was *insane* of him to do, loved them so much he filled every panel (and arguably every balloon and caption) with that love, loved them so much he tried to make them into something that provoked thought and feelings, that addressed issues, that spoke to people the way superheroes had always spoken to him. That seems crazy to me. I have his collection of Marvel comics, dogeared from reading, from love.

I heard so many times about his excitement at finding a stash of second hand Marvel comics in a junkshop, in a box, or buying them off the spinners in Great Yarmouth on holiday. He could not love superhero comics more if he tried. Jack Kirby was his idol, Ditko was his idol. It was that love that made him who he was! In the 80s he brought ecology and politics into his superhero comics, in the 90s he wrote 1963 which was a glowing fizzing love letter directly to his beloved superhero comics, he wrote that at the same time as From Hell, Lost Girls…

He did not see any opposition between his ABC line of superhero comics, and his beloved mind-boggling huge concept GNs. If I rang, he would spend 45 minutes explaining a cool bit of Tom Strong, a load of daft bits in Splash Brannigan, a clever thing he had done and was proud of. His problem was that the medium he adored was ruled by corrupt despots, that the people who made that magic were abused, that their contribution was not valued, that it was stolen from them. He already hated that before Watchmen. He already knew Kirby had been shafted. So when it happened to him, and then again, and then again, it wasn’t just a business deal gone awry, or a bit of bad luck, it broke him. The thing he loved most, the thing he poured *all* his time and energy into for his whole entire life, he couldn’t do it anymore.

He fulfilled his obligations to his fellow creators, he did the projects he could control and own, but he didn’t want to browse comic shelves anymore. That’s so f-cking sad it actually breaks my heart. So for people who thrive now, in this amazing industry we can all find our niches in, where there are so many comics we couldn’t possibly buy them all, to say that Alan Moore is out of order for hating superheroes, or what they became, for him, is unbelievable. To see him dismissed as Crazy Old Alan Moore again and again, and people not know what made him that way? To see people dissing him when their job, their industry their medium was partly built on 40 years of his hard work? I am not heartbroken, just really f-cking disappointed.

Can you imagine if he hadn’t been f-cked over? If instead of being Grumpy Alan Moore Shouting From His Cave he had spent the past 40 years putting out book after book for DC and the rest? Creating vast worlds full of the superheroes he loves? Enjoying comics? It’s a damn shame.

Once upon a time, Alan signed a contract with DC Comics to publish Watchmen and conclude the publication of V For Vendetta, that would have seen rights – and control – return to the creators a year after publication had ceased. Then the collected comics market exploded, specifically because DC was publishing Watchmen, Dark Knight and V For Vendetta, and so those rights never returned.

In another medium, when DVDs emerged, the US saw the Writers Strike, to persuade studios to renegotiate their deals with writers, and add new payment clauses relevant to this new medium, Eventually, the studios acquiesced. With Watchmen and V for Vendetta, DC Comics refused to renegotiate the contract in the light of the newly emerging trade paperback market, so Alan withdrew his labour, and stopped writing for DC Comics. And this pattern continued to play out. As a result, we never got his planned epic superhero event comic Twilight Of The Superheroes, though it was stripped for parts by the likes of Mark Waid, Geoff Johns and others over the years. And nothing else written for DC Comics characters by Alan, since. What if DC had decided to renegotiate with Alan over Watchmen and V For Vendetta publication rights? We may not have had the movies, TV shows or sequels. But we may have had dozens and dozens more superhero series written by Alan since, as well as everything else. An Alan still happier to contribute to, and better the genre as well as the medium, in the decades since. And a willing and loving ambassador for the genre and medium, as its greatest proponent and innovator. But we no longer have that. And, heartbreakingly, Leah has let us all know why.

Edited November 24, 2019 by 707comics

[mrc]

Look's like this threads been Kav - bombed   

[Brandon Shepherd]

I remember telling some friends around the time the Watchmen movie came out that Moore was the J.D. Salinger of comic book writers. Now I’m not sure if that’s accurate. I’ve only seen a few clips of him talking since that comment but in those few clips he came across as eccentric yet friendly. Didn’t he also do the Simpsons?
 

As for the article in the OP, I thought it was a sad commentary on the industry. It would also make for a good NPR report. Of course there is a dark side to many of the things we enjoy (cough, Amazon, cough), the comic industry is no exception. 
 

 

[Comicopolis]

14 hours ago, kav said:

can you give me a brief synopsis so I dont gotta read all the tweets?

No.

[Comicopolis]

13 hours ago, Ken Aldred said:

The only work of his that I don’t like is From Hell.  I didn’t read it under ideal conditions, as I had full-blown chicken pox at the time.  Both the story and art felt much too bleak and depressing for me.

 

You should read it again, Paul - it's a sublime work of art.

[Bird]

His DC work is pretty good too...the Swamp Thing stuff is terrific, Whatever Happened to the man of Tomorrow? is great. There is a collection of his DC stuff, I should get that one.

His work on Supreme was supreme and LOEG was extraordinary, at least the first volume. V2 was okay and the last bits are insane. One of my favorite comics ever is a one shot he did for Wildstorm, the Wildstorm Special featuring Mr Majestic (first published work of Carlos D'Anda). Tom Strong and Jack B Quick are great. 

I have not read Lost Girls although I have it still shrink wrapped. I have not read From Hell. And I have not read the early British stuff he did.

 

I made the OP because I think she makes an excellent point...he is a great writer whose output was limited due to his disdain for the business and the unethical treatment that he saw therein. Man, if Alan Moore could have written comics for Steve Ditko to draw after they became disillusioned imagine what they would have come up with!

[Ken Aldred]

11 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Yeah, I prefer fun, happy stories about Jack the Ripper.

I was considering staying with the more humorous material such as Splash Brannigan and Warren Strong...

51 minutes ago, Comicopolis said:

You should read it again, Paul - it's a sublime work of art.

But, maybe ?  

Edited November 24, 2019 by Ken Aldred

[JollyComics]

It's crystal clear that DC/Marvel stole Alan Moore's glory days.  50+ years of hard working of Jack Kirby was taken away too. Joe Simon wished to renew his copyright of Captain America he created after the window of opportunity widely opened for Marvel/Atlas after the copyright was expired.  They were sick and heartbroken as even if their souls were sold. The lawsuits are not cheap nowadays anymore. I tutored my 68 years old student who told me that he was instantly fired from his job after 27 years with the company WITHOUT any reasons and he didn't get the severance pay. He won the lawsuit and $200,00 but the half went to his lawyers.  Jack Kirby's family is probably still fighting for reclaiming all rights of Jack Kirby's works against Disney but is this worth money for them? Too damned expensive - Disney company is probably laughing.

David Sim of Cerebus and Billy Watterson of Calvin and Hobbes are smarter to not sell their rights and protect their glory days.  Frank Miller is so pissed off and is cursing everywhere. I am saddened about Steve Ditko's unfortunate situation - he was one of greatest comic artists I ever know!

I understood why they had gone through after my wife's idea (she was a graphic designer that time) that had became few million dollar product for one year...unfortunately it was part of the company's property. My wife is pissed off and will never share her ideas with someone else again.

[Mr bla bla]

20 hours ago, Mr bla bla said:

Im disgusted with how DC and Marvel has tricked and abused Alan Moore and by means of fiscal fine print has as good as @stolen@ creative property made by Moore. Shame on those greedy suits who make a living by ripping off unique creators. This travesty shall not be forgotten. 

So, DC tries with their ‘black label’ to claim some kind of artistic integrity. (That is after they  drove Karen Berger out). Well that plan looks a little bleak. Their Moore-Gate case about Watchmen exposes DC as what they are: a greedy corporation willing to do whatever it takes - including backstabbing their own creators. All for the green😃

[dupont2005]

12 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Moore was perfectly fine with writing DCU stories while knowing he couldn't claim ownership of even the characters he created for those issues. The problem arose from something new that he couldn't have foreseen: the regularly printed collected edition (and DC's use of such to effectively steal work he actually owned).

Knowing their history with creators rights and IP, Moore thought “That wont happen to me, I’m too smart for DC’s team of corporate lawyers!”
 

I wouldn’t have been as confident