Has anyone actually read Wertham's "Seduction of the Innocent?" 0

[NoMan]

I'm sure the pictures are to die for, but how is it as a read? 

Thanks in advance

[Badger]

I read it 35 or so years ago. Its a psuedo-scientific work written for a wide audience.  If you can get through "A Brief History of Time" then Seduction will be a breeze. Plus it has cool pictures and accusations that will make you laugh out loud.

[NoMan]

16 minutes ago, Badger said:

I read it 35 or so years ago. Its a psuedo-scientific work written for a wide audience.  If you can get through "A Brief History of Time" then Seduction will be a breeze. Plus it has cool pictures and accusations that will make you laugh out loud.

thank you. i'm currently reading a book about the "Satanic Panic" of the 1980s (D&D, Jack Chick religious tracts - now there's some OA I'm down for, the McMartin Preschool trial, satanic themes in He Man Master of the Universe, Rock & roll, etc) and the book describes Werthem's tone as "Sardonic." I of course know the book but have never read it, however, I thought the good Dr. was straight up serious.

Edited December 4, 2019 by NoMan

[mysterio]

14 minutes ago, Badger said:

I read it 35 or so years ago. Its a psuedo-scientific work written for a wide audience.  If you can get through "A Brief History of Time" then Seduction will be a breeze. Plus it has cool pictures and accusations that will make you laugh out loud.

I read it about 30 years ago in grad school, and had a similar reaction. Worth a read for the historical perspective. 

[NoMan]

To any of the lawyers here, speaking of the McMartin Preschool Trial, is there a course on that trial in law school much like "Jarndyce and Jarndyce" was taught in legal classes in Bleak House?

[Badger]

13 minutes ago, NoMan said:

thank you. i'm currently reading a book about the "Satanic Panic" of the 1980s (D&D, Jack Chick religious tracts - now there's some OA I'm down for, the McMartin Preschool trial, satanic themes in He Man Master of the Universe, Rock & roll, etc) and the book describes Werthem's tone as "Sardonic." I of course know the book but have never read it, however, I thought the good Dr. was straight up serious.

Werthem was straight up serious even when he would take comic book artwork, rotate and zoom in on it, and say,"A child knows to look for these hidden sexual drawings." I'm paraphrasing from memory but its accurate enough to get my point across.

 

I lived through watching the whole McMartin Preschool BS on TV and in the newspapers. It seemed that every week there would be a new child coming forward with an even more outrageous accusation. I was in high school but I remember thinking that there was no way this went on to this extent for years. It was nuts. If I remember right, the son of the owner was molesting at least one child but the psychologists convinced other children that they had been molested and given to Satan. 

I was playing D&D in a small Oklahoma town during the D&D satanic scare. We could not bring our D&D books to school without being accused of being Satanists. Friends were inviting me to their churches to save my soul. Very nice of them but unneeded.  The only thing I saw that looked satanic was when I went with a friend to a Baptist service and people started falling down and speaking in tongues. Really annoyed me when devils and demons were renamed in the game to calm the scared masses. 

[WolverineX]

Not even going to waste my time on that trash

[valiantman]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

Werthem was straight up serious even when he would take comic book artwork, rotate and zoom in on it, and say,"A child knows to look for these hidden sexual drawings." I'm paraphrasing from memory but its accurate enough to get my point across.

 

I lived through watching the whole McMartin Preschool BS on TV and in the newspapers. It seemed that every week there would be a new child coming forward with an even more outrageous accusation. I was in high school but I remember thinking that there was no way this went on to this extent for years. It was nuts. If I remember right, the son of the owner was molesting at least one child but the psychologists convinced other children that they had been molested and given to Satan. 

I was playing D&D in a small Oklahoma town during the D&D satanic scare. We could not bring our D&D books to school without being accused of being Satanists. Friends were inviting me to their churches to save my soul. Very nice of them but unneeded.  The only thing I saw that looked satanic was when I went with a friend to a Baptist service and people started falling down and speaking in tongues. Really annoyed me when devils and demons were renamed in the game to calm the scared masses. 

That seems to be a misappropriation, or a very local and quite unusual use of the word "Baptist".  You're describing "Pentecostal". 

[Ken Aldred]

An interesting exercise in choosing evidence selectively and, therefore, of confirmation bias from a medical, psychiatric "authority figure" who's actually totally clueless about the subject, and talking out of his arse hyperbolically, leading to needless destruction - tragic consequences such as comic book burnings and the emasculation of New Trend EC, one of the most significant, greatest publishers in the history of the medium.  

As stated earlier, no different to more recent ignorant, misguided, moralistic witch-hunts against simple escapism such as Dungeons and Dragons, metal music and video games, etc.. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Ken Aldred

[valiantman]

5 minutes ago, Ken Aldred said:

An interesting exercise in choosing evidence selectively and, therefore, of confirmation bias from a medical, psychiatric "authority figure" who's actually totally clueless about the subject, and talking out of his arse hyperbolically, leading to needless destruction - comic book burnings and tragic consequences such as the emasculation of New Trend EC, one of the most significant, greatest publishers in the history of the medium.  

As stated earlier, no different to more recent ignorant, misguided, moralistic witch-hunts against simple escapism such as Dungeons and Dragons, metal music and video games, etc.. 

This is actually in the book... sums it up pretty nicely:

FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD (addressing Wertham): I think it is stupid. You are the only
psychiatrist who is really interested. Maybe there are five others... out of five thousand

[Badger]

12 minutes ago, valiantman said:

That seems to be a misappropriation, or a very local and quite unusual use of the word "Baptist".  You're describing "Pentecostal". 

It was held in the Baptist Church in Seminole Oklahoma but it was a visiting preacher so...

[valiantman]

5 minutes ago, Badger said:

18 minutes ago, valiantman said:

That seems to be a misappropriation, or a very local and quite unusual use of the word "Baptist".  You're describing "Pentecostal". 

It was held in the Baptist Church in Seminole Oklahoma but it was a visiting preacher so...

Generally speaking (and easy to Google), the Baptists are "credited" for their ban on speaking in tongues.

[wilbil]

Labeling the work as pseudo-scientific is very generous. That would be an apt description if the word "quackery" was added after the word scientific.

[wilbil]

4 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Generally speaking (and easy to Google), the Baptists are "credited" for their ban on speaking in tongues.

Somebody forgot to tell the Catholics.

[Badger]

8 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Generally speaking (and easy to Google), the Baptists are "credited" for their ban on speaking in tongues.

It is easy to Google. Baptists have, through the years, loosened that ban. In 2005, "SBC president Frank Page also recognized and let stand the varying interpretations within the denomination."

Southern Baptists Debate speaking in tongues

I can tell you that the Baptist Church in Seminole Oklahoma in 1984 had a guest speaker speak in tongues and had members of the Congregation follow his example. The majority of Baptists may not accept the Pentecost but it is practiced in some Baptist churches.

In 2015, missionary work was opened to Baptists who speak in tongues.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/may-web-only/imb-ban-speaking-in-tongues-baptism-baptist-missionary.html

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Badger

[valiantman]

1 minute ago, Badger said:

8 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Generally speaking (and easy to Google), the Baptists are "credited" for their ban on speaking in tongues.

It is easy to Google. Baptists have, through the years, loosened that ban. In 2005, "SBC president Frank Page also recognized and let stand the varying interpretations within the denomination."

Southern Baptists Debate speaking in tongues

I can tell you that the Baptist Church in Seminole Oklahoma in 1984 had a guest speaker speak in tongues and had members of the Congregation follow his example. The majority of Baptists may not accept the Pentecost but it is practiced in some Baptist churches.

You seem aggravated.   Maybe we should shift our focus to what was definitely happening in the Catholic church (in every town) in 1984.  I'm betting Wertham would blame comics. 

[Badger]

9 minutes ago, valiantman said:

You seem aggravated.   Maybe we should shift our focus to what was definitely happening in the Catholic church (in every town) in 1984.  I'm betting Wertham would blame comics. 

[NoMan]

35 minutes ago, Ken Aldred said:

An interesting exercise in choosing evidence selectively and, therefore, of confirmation bias from a medical, psychiatric "authority figure" who's actually totally clueless about the subject, and talking out of his arse hyperbolically, leading to needless destruction - tragic consequences such as comic book burnings and the emasculation of New Trend EC, one of the most significant, greatest publishers in the history of the medium.  

As stated earlier, no different to more recent ignorant, misguided, moralistic witch-hunts against simple escapism such as Dungeons and Dragons, metal music and video games, etc.. 

thanks. I guess I'll pass on the read.

[valiantman]

Just now, NoMan said:

thanks. I guess I'll pass on the read.

Just skim it - there are several free-to-read websites with the text (PDF or otherwise).

[valiantman]

An interesting quote from 1953...

One expert writes about the fact that children, while they may neglect their other possessions,
"hardly ever deface or lose a comic book. These books are treasured, they are objects of
barter, they become collector's items."

Did anyone have 1953 (and earlier) as the start of serious comic collecting and the protection of comic conditions?