How "seriously" is OA taken by the mainstream art world? 0

[tth2]

Man, how many posts does it take to say "The Fine Art World does not take comic OA seriously at all"?

[Rick2you2]

5 hours ago, tth2 said:

Man, how many posts does it take to say "The Fine Art World does not take comic OA seriously at all"?

Not this many. Some of us are just venting our frustrations and laughing at its hypocrisies. Personally, I don’t care. I don’t need someone else’s approval of my hobbies.

[tth2]

2 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

Personally, I don’t care. I don’t need someone else’s approval of my hobbies.

Exactly! 

[vodou]

3 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

Personally, I don’t care. I don’t need someone else’s approval of my hobbies.

The issue is that people keep trying to elevate the thing above "hobbies"...just let it be and da-hell-wit everyone that can't handle that (and especially dump the significant other if they can't either )

[grapeape]

9 minutes ago, vodou said:

The issue is that people keep trying to elevate the thing above "hobbies"...just let it be and da-hell-wit everyone that can't handle that (and especially dump the significant other if they can't either )

I was going to....but she beat me to the punch. I guess insisting that she call me by my board name grape ape was the last straw.

[NC101]

4 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

Not this many. Some of us are just venting our frustrations and laughing at its hypocrisies. Personally, I don’t care. I don’t need someone else’s approval of my hobbies.

I wasn't asking because I'm interested in approval, I was asking because I'm just starting out and I don't want big-money art collectors to start coming in and making things more expensive than they already are...personally, I'm very glad to hear that the art world doesn't take comics art too seriously, I'm not sure that will always be the case so I'm all for preserving that state of affairs for as long as possible 

[vodou]

1 hour ago, grapeape said:

I was going to....but she beat me to the punch. I guess insisting that she call me by my board name grape ape was the last straw.

Grapeape is definitely more all-ages nickname than what my wife calls me!

[vodou]

13 minutes ago, NewCollector101 said:

big-money art collectors to start coming in and making things more expensive than they already are

They're already here. That's why nothing older than two minutes ago and published is two figures anymore.

[Bronty]

10 hours ago, tth2 said:

Man, how many posts does it take to say "The Fine Art World does not take comic OA seriously at all"?

Yes.    I always like to switch POVs when trying to understand someone else's viewpoint.

Let's flip the -script on the question a little:

--How seriously does the OA community take Fine Art?

 

For the most part, not very seriously at all.    We generally don't understand or care for what they are up to.    They are doing their thing, we are doing our thing.    We shouldn't expect any different or expect them to be interested in our world , for the most part, when we aren't interested in their world, for the most part.

[Rick2you2]

27 minutes ago, NewCollector101 said:

I wasn't asking because I'm interested in approval, I was asking because I'm just starting out and I don't want big-money art collectors to start coming in and making things more expensive than they already are...personally, I'm very glad to hear that the art world doesn't take comics art too seriously, I'm not sure that will always be the case so I'm all for preserving that state of affairs for as long as possible 

If you are just starting out, perhaps I can give you some assistance.

First, treat this as a hobby, not an investment. Even if you buy something that one day turns into real money value, you are more likely to buy a lot of things that don’t. And even when you hit, you won’t get full value, or close, selling to a dealer.

Second, IMO, there is a lot of excellent OA produced these days which collectors don’t give the time of day it deserves, or which isn’t from a favored run of books. A lot of people here like “the classics” sometimes more for nostalgia reasons than skill, I think. Go with your gut. There are also some under appreciated “ old timers”, too, but you will probably do better with the newer stuff, if only because it is drawn more for the modern reader than the old common “6 panel” page.

Third, try to get the best example of something you can afford instead of a few mediocre examples for the same price. Better to hold onto your cash and wait for the right piece.

Fourth, try to limit your purchases to a topic or topics, at least for now. There is so much volume out there, you will go broke or eventually want to sell things you bought when you were a newbie, and may lose money.

Fifth, unless you really love an artist, stay away from commissions—for now. Too many artists competing for your dollars for you to know what you will later regret. I get commissions on occasion, but I know where I want to waste my money.

[NC101]

11 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

If you are just starting out, perhaps I can give you some assistance.

First, treat this as a hobby, not an investment. Even if you buy something that one day turns into real money value, you are more likely to buy a lot of things that don’t. And even when you hit, you won’t get full value, or close, selling to a dealer.

Second, IMO, there is a lot of excellent OA produced these days which collectors don’t give the time of day it deserves, or which isn’t from a favored run of books. A lot of people here like “the classics” sometimes more for nostalgia reasons than skill, I think. Go with your gut. There are also some under appreciated “ old timers”, too, but you will probably do better with the newer stuff, if only because it is drawn more for the modern reader than the old common “6 panel” page.

Third, try to get the best example of something you can afford instead of a few mediocre examples for the same price. Better to hold onto your cash and wait for the right piece.

Fourth, try to limit your purchases to a topic or topics, at least for now. There is so much volume out there, you will go broke or eventually want to sell things you bought when you were a newbie, and may lose money.

Fifth, unless you really love an artist, stay away from commissions—for now. Too many artists competing for your dollars for you to know what you will later regret. I get commissions on occasion, but I know where I want to waste my money.

Thank you! I've started going through the new collector thread too, it's really helpful.

[grapeape]

1 hour ago, vodou said:

They're already here. That's why nothing older than two minutes ago and published is two figures anymore.

It's true. They don't have to respect it to wade in as speculators. I have nightmares of a couple a rich guys handing over a(discretion purchase-account with performance reward) to the Donnelys and telling them, " buy what you think will out perform the S&P for the next 5 years."Of course the one Donnely brother will have to ask his brother, "what is the S&P?"

In any case joking aside it's a double edged sword. Additional wealth invested into our hobby makes some of the art in our portfolios rise in value. Now we seem to be at the point where we're all fighting for 4-6 figure pieces we could of had for hundreds of dollars at one point. I talked with my friends about the likely hood of Disposable income speculators entering our market as far back as 1997. It became an arms race of sorts. It was easy actually. Seemed like whatever I wanted to get I had a serious shot at it. e-bay was a tremendous source of original art at one time. So much material that you would make great buys constantly. Bidders had trouble focusing because there was so much art to choose from. 1999-2004 was a great time to buy art.

As for (newcollector101) I recommend taking your time. I know it's tempting to buy yourself in as a "player." Forget all that. 

1) learn the artists, especially the inkers!!!! If you don't know the inkers you are going to make huge purchase mistakes. They can make or break the beauty of a page. Who was Jack Kirby's best inker(s) etc.

2) Learn the pricing FMV vs. I gotta have it pricing. Are you over paying? That will take time.

3) Arrange these in any order but buy what you love. You will be happier that way. It's very hard (not impossible) to jump right in buying pieces that will sky rocket in value. take your time and learn.

[Varanis]

2 hours ago, vodou said:

They're already here. That's why nothing older than two minutes ago and published is two figures anymore.

I may be wrong, but I don't think the "spend $120,000 on a banana taped to a wall" kind of wealth is in on comic art yet. Or at least very few are. I feel like there's a big difference in spending six figures on a piece of comic art that has large personal significance to the buyer and "throwing away" six figures on performance art. The comic art buyer will stretch their wealth to realize a dream. I have to imagine whoever spent six figures on the banana, that money was nothing to them. I could be wrong though and others are much well informed than I on the buyer base in both markets.

[Rick2you2]

32 minutes ago, Varanis said:

I may be wrong, but I don't think the "spend $120,000 on a banana taped to a wall" kind of wealth is in on comic art yet. Or at least very few are. I feel like there's a big difference in spending six figures on a piece of comic art that has large personal significance to the buyer and "throwing away" six figures on performance art. The comic art buyer will stretch their wealth to realize a dream. I have to imagine whoever spent six figures on the banana, that money was nothing to them. I could be wrong though and others are much well informed than I on the buyer base in both markets.

Apparently, a performance artist ate one of the bananas. Let ‘em try that with Bristol Board.

[Varanis]

5 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

Apparently, a performance artist ate one of the bananas. Let ‘em try that with Bristol Board.

Definitely more difficult, but doable I'm sure.

[vodou]

52 minutes ago, Varanis said:

I may be wrong, but I don't think the "spend $120,000 on a banana taped to a wall" kind of wealth is in on comic art yet. Or at least very few are. I feel like there's a big difference in spending six figures on a piece of comic art that has large personal significance to the buyer and "throwing away" six figures on performance art. The comic art buyer will stretch their wealth to realize a dream. I have to imagine whoever spent six figures on the banana, that money was nothing to them. I could be wrong though and others are much well informed than I on the buyer base in both markets.

You're wrong. In a sense. Comic art changed when buyers considered their purchase price in light of potential later resale value (versus straight consumption). That had to happen when it got more expensive than a night out for nice dinner/drinks per piece. Buying with an eye toward selling is called speculation. Whether you loved comics or not as a kid doesn't factor in. Very few will lay up more than three figures today for something they love (or don't) as consumption, never to be sold or offer any salvage value in return. View your art purchases like today's lunch and you're on the ball -innit for the love, otherwise...you are a speculator, whether of Cattelan or Kirby

That's my definition, you can disagree and have your own if you like.

Naturally, there are some very wealthy fanboys out there that do buy strictly for love and zero return. But they are very, very few.

[Varanis]

3 minutes ago, vodou said:

You're wrong. In a sense. Comic art changed when buyers considered their purchase price in light of potential later resale value (versus straight consumption). That had to happen when it got more expensive than a night out for nice dinner/drinks per piece. Buying with an eye toward selling is called speculation. Whether you loved comics or not as a kid doesn't factor in. Very few will lay up more than three figures today for something they love (or don't) as consumption, never to be sold or offer any salvage value in return. View your art purchases like today's lunch and you're on the ball -innit for the love, otherwise...you are a speculator, whether of Cattelan or Kirby

That's my definition, you can disagree and have your own if you like.

Naturally, there are some very wealthy fanboys out there that do buy strictly for love and zero return. But they are very, very few.

I'm definitely not saying there isn't speculation. Of course any hobby like this will have rampant speculation. I'm moreso saying that in my limited experience, it seems like fine art has more and bigger pockets tuned in and seems a lot more inaccessible than comic art. I believe that's what @NewCollector101's fear was - the entrance of the right players that would make comic art inaccessible to the middle / upper middle class. Right now I feel like comic art is relatively accessible for a good number of people - collectors, speculators, and fans alike. In my assessment, the individual who spent $120,000 on the banana did so to be part of an experience and not to purchase an appreciable asset. That sort of experience for that kind of money strikes me as a defining symptom of inaccessibility. I'm not sure there's anything comparable in the comic art world. My experience is pretty limited in both markets, so I'm probably off base, but your response did make me realize I articulated fairly poorly the thought I was trying to convey originally.

[vodou]

11 minutes ago, Varanis said:

it seems like fine art has more and bigger pockets tuned in and seems a lot more inaccessible than comic art.

This is because you're reducing something even more interesting and diverse than comic art to the handful of seven-to-nine figure headlines that come out of the auction houses each year. Making that mistake is no different than the outsider to our hobby making assumptions on HA and CLink headlines in isolation.

[NC101]

1 hour ago, Varanis said:

I may be wrong, but I don't think the "spend $120,000 on a banana taped to a wall" kind of wealth is in on comic art yet. Or at least very few are. I feel like there's a big difference in spending six figures on a piece of comic art that has large personal significance to the buyer and "throwing away" six figures on performance art. The comic art buyer will stretch their wealth to realize a dream. I have to imagine whoever spent six figures on the banana, that money was nothing to them. I could be wrong though and others are much well informed than I on the buyer base in both markets.

That's the kind of money I was referring to, people who throw away 150k on a banana or buy a Picasso for fun. There's also a lot of money laundering in high-end art, which can really drive the prices up. I was thinking it doesn't seem like all of that money's interested in comics art.

[Varanis]

Just now, vodou said:

This is because you're reducing something even more interesting and diverse than comic art to the handful of seven-to-nine figure headlines that come out of the auction houses each year. Making that mistake is no different than the outsider to our hobby making assumptions on HA and CLink headlines in isolation.

Great point. It would make sense if there is a lot more fine art I'm unaware of that is accessible. My gut still tells me there are some big differences in the amount of wealth and type of wealth involved in the two markets, but a gut feeling is nothing to go on.