Anyone know anything about editor sheets? 1 1

[Unstoppablejayd]

Not sure if this is the right place or not...  it my friend came across a box of editor sheets- at least that is what he was told they are. They are all SA and originally from Don Heck. He is a comic dealer and basically is looking to see what value they may have. He asked me because he knows I collect OA . But since I know nothing about them.. I figured I would go to the best fountain of knowledge I know of.. you! 

Thanks in advance 

 

[NelsonAI]

They look like old school photocopies.  Before digital photocopiers, the early machines used a powdery substance that didn't adhere to the paper very well and often had a chemical smell. It has to be handled carefully otherwise you get smudges.

It looks like the copies were of Don's pencils and lettered but before inks.  This gave editors a chance to make last minute changes to the art before it was inked.  The notations could be from Sol Brodsky.

While it is not original art, fans have an interest in seeing what the original pencils looks like. 

Think about Kirby Collector Magazine where photocopies of Jack's pencils are published.

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by NelsonAI
Typos

[Unstoppablejayd]

9 hours ago, NelsonAI said:

They look like old school photocopies.  Before digital photocopiers, the early machines used a powdery substance that didn't adhere to the paper very well and often had a chemical smell. It has to be handled carefully otherwise you get smudges.

It looks like the copies were of Don's pencils and lettered but before inks.  This gave editors a chance to make last minute changes to the art before it was inked.  The notations could be from Sol Brodsky.

While it is not original art, fans have an interest in seeing what the original pencils looks like. 

Think about Kirby Collector Magazine where photocopies of Jack's pencils are published.

 

Thank you for the info!

[bluechip]

22 hours ago, Unstoppablejayd said:

Not sure if this is the right place or not...  it my friend came across a box of editor sheets- at least that is what he was told they are. They are all SA and originally from Don Heck. He is a comic dealer and basically is looking to see what value they may have. He asked me because he knows I collect OA . But since I know nothing about them.. I figured I would go to the best fountain of knowledge I know of.. you! 

Thanks in advance 

 

I like this sort of thing probably more than most, with the proviso that I like the things that are genuine in-office production pieces that were made for the original printing.  To me, and a few others, that makes them very interesting.   The proliferation of faked "production pieces" has done much to damage the interest in them, as has the condemnation of some OA purists who sometimes get so caught up pointing out that it's "not original art" that they want you to believe a pre-production pieces with handwritten notes from a 1960s classic page should be no more valuable than a scan of the finished art made today -- which, in case it's not clear, is taking it, I think, way too far.   Maybe if we could settle on a term for these things which did not offend the purists' ears, and which allowed us to condemn the fakery of scam artists offering "art" made yesterday at Kinkos -- maybe we could find what is their true value.

[aokartman]

blue chip said....

I like this sort of thing probably more than most, with the proviso that I like the things that are genuine in-office production pieces that were made for the original printing.  To me, and a few others, that makes them very interesting.   The proliferation of faked "production pieces" has done much to damage the interest in them, as has the condemnation of some OA purists who sometimes get so caught up pointing out that it's "not original art" that they want you to believe a pre-production pieces with handwritten notes from a 1960s classic page should be no more valuable than a scan of the finished art made today -- which, in case it's not clear, is taking it, I think, way too far.   Maybe if we could settle on a term for these things which did not offend the purists' ears, and which allowed us to condemn the fakery of scam artists offering "art" made yesterday at Kinkos -- maybe we could find what is their true value.

 

This is the way I feel, too.  Of course, the hand-drawn original art commands the highest price, and I think that's appropriate.

The other production materials also have some collector interest, but are more likely to be faked.

And if so easily faked, the market value has a plateau.

Certification, authenticity certificate, is a rabbit hole I hope the hobby does not go down with any office pre-production material.

Maybe it will remain a niche entry level field for collectors!

Fingers crossed.

Thanks for the good comment.

David

[ESeffinga]

I believe the process for these used to generally be called Cyanotypes, and then the development of the Cyano-copier industrialized the process.
It's essentially pigment and light sensitive chemicals that transfer the pigmet to stick to the paper,. It is in essence also how blueprints used to be produced, and how they got their name.

 

I absolutely think hand-noted production material has historic value as instructive parts of the comic art making process. In much the same way that letters from Civil War soldiers writing home, or Presidential Libraries can have value as educational or reserach material. And also simply as being original art-adjacent. They are a connection to a part how those beloved nostalgia totems came to be, and the thoughts and ideas behind decisions made by those on the ground. The actual monetary value will always be more nebulous, for all the obvious reasons. Comics is an ever shrinking niche hobby, collecting the OA from comic is a niche within that niche. Collecting production items like hand colored color guides, printing plates, letters and notes, or something hand annotated like this, from a period in which these notes were still done by hand, is going to be a niche, within a niche, within a niche, and of an ever shrinking pool of interest among the cohort that is of age with these comics and processes, etc.

So the pool is so shallow there, the values will also be accordingly shallow. Unless 2 dudes decide they just gotta have it all. And they start slugging it out. But at that point I suspect they'd rather spend those bigger bucks on OA, like every other one of us in the less tiny pool.
But if you like wading into that pool for curiosities, do enjoy it. Make sure you understand the material and how it will hold up as it ages. A lot of this stuff is heavily chemically treated, and the paper was never intended to last for posterity. So things getting brittle should not be far from mind before spending real $ on anything.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by ESeffinga

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, ESeffinga said:

I believe the process for these used to generally be called Cyanotypes, and then the development of the Cyano-copier industrialized the process.
It's essentially pigment and light sensitive chemicals that transfer the pigmet to stick to the paper,. It is in essence also how blueprints used to be produced, and how they got their name.

 

I absolutely think hand-noted production material has historic value as instructive parts of the comic art making process. In much the same way that letters from Civil War soldiers writing home, or Presidential Libraries can have value as educational or reserach material. And also simply as being original art-adjacent. They are a connection to a part how those beloved nostalgia totems came to be, and the thoughts and ideas behind decisions made by those on the ground. The actual monetary value will always be more nebulous, for all the obvious reasons. Comics is an ever shrinking niche hobby, collecting the OA from comic is a niche within that niche. Collecting production items like hand colored color guides, printing plates, letters and notes, or something hand annotated like this, from a period in which these notes were still done by hand, is going to be a niche, within a niche, within a niche, and of an ever shrinking pool of interest among the cohort that is of age with these comics and processes, etc.

So the pool is so shallow there, the values will also be accordingly shallow. Unless 2 dudes decide they just gotta have it all. And they start slugging it out. But at that point I suspect they'd rather spend those bigger bucks on OA, like every other one of us in the less tiny pool.
But if you like wading into that pool for curiosities, do enjoy it. Make sure you understand the material and how it will hold up as it ages. A lot of this stuff is heavily chemically treated, and the paper was never intended to last for posterity. So things getting brittle should not be far from mind before spending real $ on anything.

 

 

Just wondering if this would have value to a museum? If it’s tough to sell, it might be valuable as a charitable deduction.

[Unstoppablejayd]

Thanks for all the feedback.. he has an appointment with metropolis to see what they think... should be interesting.

[ESeffinga]

2 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

Just wondering if this would have value to a museum? If it’s tough to sell, it might be valuable as a charitable deduction.

Nah. Not unless it was something like the Words and Pictures Museum was. Someplace looking to preserve bits of comics’ history. But first it’d depend on what the “history” is. In this case it doesn’t tick any of the boxes for being historically relevant, IMO. No more than a random day to day sticky or inter office memo would have.

I was speaking more to the overall topic for this type of material, rather than this specific material. 

If this were about the creation of a character, or a beloved or groundbreaking issue, or any other one of a hundred criteria that makes a certain comic or even comic OA more desirable than most, that would maybe give it some historic significance. As it is, this is little more than the above office memos. And I don’t think people are really going to get too interested in a random note by a random artist on a random copy of a random page, or go digging through old boxes of office garbage looming for Sal B’s lunch order. It’s not down to that level of course, but closer to that than a marked up Spidey Gwen Stacy death production page with notes would be. Or a memo about killing of Jason Todd, or something about this new Wolverine guy, or you get the idea.

 

[ESeffinga]

2 hours ago, Unstoppablejayd said:

Thanks for all the feedback.. he has an appointment with metropolis to see what they think... should be interesting.

Curious to hear their .02¥

 

[porcupine48]

I think it's super cool.

[aokartman]

49 minutes ago, porcupine48 said:

I think it's super cool.

Agree, and the more material that is archived from the dustbin of history,

the better understanding we have about the process of creating an early comic book.

Living in the past is an issue, however.

Some stuff has to go.

Just not quite yet!

David

Edited December 6, 2019 by aokartman
text added

[bluechip]

2 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

Nah. Not unless it was something like the Words and Pictures Museum was. Someplace looking to preserve bits of comics’ history. But first it’d depend on what the “history” is. In this case it doesn’t tick any of the boxes for being historically relevant, IMO. No more than a random day to day sticky or inter office memo would have.

I was speaking more to the overall topic for this type of material, rather than this specific material. 

If this were about the creation of a character, or a beloved or groundbreaking issue, or any other one of a hundred criteria that makes a certain comic or even comic OA more desirable than most, that would maybe give it some historic significance. As it is, this is little more than the above office memos. And I don’t think people are really going to get too interested in a random note by a random artist on a random copy of a random page, or go digging through old boxes of office garbage looming for Sal B’s lunch order. It’s not down to that level of course, but closer to that than a marked up Spidey Gwen Stacy death production page with notes would be. Or a memo about killing of Jason Todd, or something about this new Wolverine guy, or you get the idea.

 

I agree.  Generally collectors like to be able to assign metrics to determine value, such as "Issue number plus condition number = x number dollars."   

It's much harder to do that with art, but it doesn't stop people from trying.   "Twice up" is x and "standard" is y, plus penciller, multiplied (or divided) by inker, plus panel size, add for battle scenes, close-ups, full figure or partial of the hero, facing front or on his back, rarity of pieces by the artist(s) on that title, rarity of that particular combination of penciller and inker, etc, etc, etc."   

In the midst of all that people are divided on how much it does or doesn't affect whether the art includes character intros or pivotal moments in the story.   

I find the lack of a consensus on these issues sometimes presents an opportunity when I see a bunch of pages all with similar prices and one that stands out to me as having qualities that were not factored into pricing.   But those opportunities seem to present less and less.  At least, I seem rarely able to buy something at what I consider an under the radar bargain.

Diverged from my point a bit, which is that when it comes to production pieces, their place in the creative development of the story and the character, and in pivotal cultural moments, is, I would think, more important even than it is with the original art.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by bluechip

[porcupine48]

Digging this thread.

[MyNameIsLegion]

12 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

Curious to hear their .02¥

 

yeah, these are among the first legit production art pieces I've seen in awhile, and I've ranted extensively about all the fake stuff.  Curious to see what Metropolis says.  They may downplay it, or completely blow it out of proportion. I just wish there were more pics of the pages. I'm just interested in seeing the un-inked pencils. That's what's truly rare and unique about this, in addition to the production notes. If I was the seller, I'd make some high rez scans of them regardless. Some publisher would love to have these for scholarly stuiff like Back Issue Magazine.  This would have been a boon for the Don Heck book John Cooke put out a few years ago. 

Edited December 7, 2019 by MYNAMEISLEGION

[NelsonAI]

Any word from Metropolis?