Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker (SPOILERS) 0

[drotto]

This post is wondering into complete speculation range, infused with what I think may have been cool.

 

So between the "derailment" of the TLJ and the rumors about what George Lucas wanted, to hints from Trevorrow about what had originally been planned.  We do know that Lucas handed in a treatment that was very loosely the road-map (I know it is rumored it was mainly thrown out) for the current trilogy.  We know he did have a "Rey" character, but he also had a fascination with the idea of the Book of Wills and ideas introduced with the Mortis arc in the Clone Wars.  It is fair to speculate that this may be where he wanted to go. Trevorrow also hinted that the Emperor was not in his treatment, and initially Luke was meant to die in the 3rd movie. Couple this with a very poorly sourced rumor of what was Matt Smith's role in episode, may have been the Son from Mortis?  Most of this was later transferred over to the Emperor. Disney felt that introducing a mythology heavy resolution so late in the game was deemed as too confusing and not accessible to new fans.

 

So if the original Lucas desire was to explore this more mythical side of the force make certain things make more sense in the current trilogy, and how TLJ and not TFA made pursuing this impossible, but the remnants are still in episode 7 and 9. In this speculation Matt Smith was intended to be the Son and Rey would then be the reincarnation of the Daughter.  In my mind, this makes everything make sense.  It explains why Rey was so powerful and needed so little training.  It explains why Luke was on Ahch-to and what he found there.  He was there to confirm Rey was the daughter, and that the Son was coming to find her.  That would explain the importance of the books and the first temple.  It would explain his reluctance to train her, and his fear that a primal force was being unleashed, something more powerful then the Emperor ever was.

 

This would have required massive changes to TLJ, but could have maintained some elements, but it would have needed to lean heavily into force mythology.  The Star Wars movies have somewhat avoided this so far. It has been seen as inaccessible. 

 

Episode 9 would then have had the son instead of the Emperor.  The final confrontation would then have been the Son vs. the Daughter.  This logically covers the force balance theme throughout the movies.  It also gives a nice sibling call back into the new movie similar to the twin idea of Luke and Leia. It would even make lines like "I am all the Sith" and "I am all the Jedi" make sense.  Also it follows, that the Son would have a much easier time working in the shadows and amassing an army and having Snoke as a proxy leader..  It would have left intact the ramifications and resolutions both thematically and plot found in ROTJ.  

 

I know it is just my ramblings, but here they are.  I know they can and never will be proven.  I know this is basically fan fiction, so thanks for tolerating.

[fantastic_four]

6 minutes ago, drotto said:

This post is wondering into complete speculation range, infused with what I think may have been cool.

 

So between the "derailment" of the TLJ and the rumors about what George Lucas wanted, to hints from Trevorrow about what had originally been planned.  We do know that Lucas handed in a treatment that was very loosely the road-map (I know it is rumored it was mainly thrown out) for the current trilogy.  We know he did have a "Rey" character, but he also had a fascination with the idea of the Book of Wills and ideas introduced with the Mortis arc in the Clone Wars.  It is fair to speculate that this may be where he wanted to go. Trevorrow also hinted that the Emperor was not in his treatment, and initially Luke was meant to die in the 3rd movie. Couple this with a very poorly sourced rumor of what was Matt Smith's role in episode, may have been the Son from Mortis?  Most of this was later transferred over to the Emperor. Disney felt that introducing a mythology heavy resolution so late in the game was deemed as too confusing and not accessible to new fans.

 

So if the original Lucas desire was to explore this more mythical side of the force make certain things make more sense in the current trilogy, and how TLJ and not TFA made pursuing this impossible, but the remnants are still in episode 7 and 9. In this speculation Matt Smith was intended to be the Son and Rey would then be the reincarnation of the Daughter.  In my mind, this makes everything make sense.  It explains why Rey was so powerful and needed so little training.  It explains why Luke was on Ahch-to and what he found there.  He was there to confirm Rey was the daughter, and that the Son was coming to find her.  That would explain the importance of the books and the first temple.  It would explain his reluctance to train her, and his fear that a primal force was being unleashed, something more powerful then the Emperor ever was.

 

This would have required massive changes to TLJ, but could have maintained some elements, but it would have needed to lean heavily into force mythology.  The Star Wars movies have somewhat avoided this so far. It has been seen as inaccessible. 

 

Episode 9 would then have had the son instead of the Emperor.  The final confrontation would then have been the Son vs. the Daughter.  This logically covers the force balance theme throughout the movies.  It also gives a nice sibling call back into the new movie similar to the twin idea of Luke and Leia. It would even make lines like "I am all the Sith" and "I am all the Jedi" make sense.  Also it follows, that the Son would have a much easier time working in the shadows and amassing an army and having Snoke as a proxy leader..  It would have left intact the ramifications and resolutions both thematically and plot found in ROTJ.  

 

I know it is just my ramblings, but here they are.  I know they can and never will be proven.  I know this is basically fan fiction, so thanks for tolerating.

Interesting.  I'm still in season one of Clone Wars, but your ideas now have me compelled to start binging forward to season 3 where I see the Mortis arc occurred.  

[Mr Sneeze]

7 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

He explicitly says that everything he knew came from looking at her own memories.  So as ret-cons go--assuming it even was one, which I'm unsure of--it works to have Rey's father be Palpatine's son.

I have always assumed he is not telling the whole truth in that scene. The Last Jedi plays better if you assume Rey has a link to Palpatine - for me at least.

[drotto]

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

So you're also fine with Abrams ret-conning him then?  One guy saying anyone can be a Jedi, and the next guy reversing it?

I'm fine myself with either one of those ideas, but I'm NOT fine with every director choosing back and forth which one they prefer.

The idea was never that the Force was only in certain families, but it was implied in the other movies and discarded EU that it may have a hereditary component.

 

Originally there was a large portion of the Jedi order that was tasked with finding babies that were force sensitive to bring into the order and train.  As shown by Anakin, it was not a perfect process and that potential users could be missed.  If it was very heavily family based, tracking these children would have been much easier, and figuring out power levels would have been easier.  The did imply that the Force seemed to run strong in some families (ANH), but exclusivity was never stated.

 

But the force runs strong and that certain species were generally considered to be more Force sensitive, does imply a level of genetic predisposition.  For instance Yoda's species, Togruta and Twi'lek are noted as being more force sensitive, while Wookies and Mandalorians are noted as either having no Force users or users are extremely rare.

[fantastic_four]

1 minute ago, Mr Sneeze said:

12 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

He explicitly says that everything he knew came from looking at her own memories.  So as ret-cons go--assuming it even was one, which I'm unsure of--it works to have Rey's father be Palpatine's son.

I have always assumed he is not telling the whole truth in that scene. The Last Jedi plays better if you assume Rey has a link to Palpatine - for me at least.

Me too about Kylo--I assumed he was either lying or leaving out some key piece of information about what he saw.  My guess based upon his obsession with her in Force Awakens coupled with Leia's instant affection for her was that she was his sister or cousin...so now I'm left wondering why he was so obsessed with her and why Leia liked her so much.  Were those dropped threads from JJ, or some kind of implied instant attraction between Force sensitives?  

[fantastic_four]

2 minutes ago, drotto said:

The idea was never that the Force was only in certain families, but it was implied in the other movies and discarded EU that it may have a hereditary component.

 

Originally there was a large portion of the Jedi order that was tasked with finding babies that were force sensitive to bring into the order and train.  As shown by Anakin, it was not a perfect process and that potential users could be missed.  If it was very heavily family based, tracking these children would have been much easier, and figuring out power levels would have been easier.  The did imply that the Force seemed to run strong in some families (ANH), but exclusivity was never stated.

 

But the force runs strong and that certain species were generally considered to be more Force sensitive, does imply a level of genetic predisposition.  For instance Yoda's species, Togruta and Twi'lek are noted as being more force sensitive, while Wookies and Mandalorians are noted as either having no Force users or users are extremely rare.

Yea I didn't think it was just certain families, but like any genetic trait in heredity--it can be inherited, it can surface from past heredity, or it can mutate instantaneously.  Rey could have been like Shaquille O'Neal, one of the most massive humans ever with nobody anywhere near his size in his immediate family or known from his family tree.  So tied to genetics in some way.

Am I remembering wrong about Rian suggesting that you could achieve Force sensitivity without a genetic basis?  Been two years now, I don't remember why I thought he was suggesting that, maybe I'm remembering wrong.  But I got that impression, and I've seen others in both of these threads who had that impression as well.

[Rip]

 

 

There is a lot of BS running around so its hard to say what's true and what's not these days. So much that Trevorrow had to come out and dismiss a lot of them.

However....Drotto have you been at https://www.millenniumfalcon.com/? Its one of the older "leak" websites. I find the "son" Mortis arc quite interesting.

I haven't been able to confirm for or against with my contacts and research.

Now, Lucas' story starts around Last Jedi with elements of The Force Awakens mixed in, the Death Star Debris was supposed to be back in the first one.
Luke was still on Ahch-to although he was talking to a sith force ghost.

Rey was Kira (strangely close to someone from the Droids cartoon series) There was a another teen-age character as well. A male kind of like Finn/Poe.

He also went into more detail about the "Wills" here.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/george-lucas-ideas-for-his-own-star-wars-sequel-trilogy-1826798496

[drotto]

3 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Yea I didn't think it was just certain families, but like any genetic trait in heredity--it can be inherited, it can surface from past heredity, or it can mutate instantaneously.  Rey could have been like Shaquille O'Neal, one of the most massive humans ever with nobody anywhere near his size in his immediate family or known from his family tree.  So tied to genetics in some way.

Am I remembering wrong about Rian suggesting that you could achieve Force sensitivity without a genetic basis?  Been two years now, I don't remember why I thought he was suggesting that, maybe I'm remembering wrong.  But I got that impression, and I've seen others in both of these threads who had that impression as well.

It goes back to the stupid Metachlorians thing, which has been large abandoned since people hated it.  That implied that all living things have some level in their systems.  Those that were force users had unusually high levels to the point they could now use the Force. So having high levels was implied to run in certain families, but again it was never presented as exclusive.

[drotto]

10 minutes ago, Rip said:

 

 

There is a lot of BS running around so its hard to say what's true and what's not these days. So much that Trevorrow had to come out and dismiss a lot of them.

However....Drotto have you been at https://www.millenniumfalcon.com/? Its one of the older "leak" websites. I find the "son" Mortis arc quite interesting.

I haven't been able to confirm for or against with my contacts and research.

Now, Lucas' story starts around Last Jedi with elements of The Force Awakens mixed in, the Death Star Debris was supposed to be back in the first one.
Luke was still on Ahch-to although he was talking to a sith force ghost.

Rey was Kira (strangely close to someone from the Droids cartoon series) There was a another teen-age character as well. A male kind of like Finn/Poe.

He also went into more detail about the "Wills" here.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/george-lucas-ideas-for-his-own-star-wars-sequel-trilogy-1826798496

I preference that this is all based on speculation and rumor. All we know for sure is Lucas had his own outline for the current trilogy, some elements were used but it seems most was discarded, and he had expressed a desire to develop the idea of the Wills within the movies.  Reading through some of the rumors, the thought process is very similar to mine. It would have not worked to cram that all into episode 9, it would have needed to be the overall plot and theme of all three films and plotted from the start.  Although TFA could have been left intact except for maybe a few added hints dropped.

Edited December 23, 2019 by drotto

[Rip]

There is surprisingly amount of info from official sources, with the art books for the Force Awakens and the Last Jedi having some of the greatest excerpts from Lucas's original stories. 

https://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/04/star-wars-the-last-jedi-force-awakens-george-lucas-idea/

 

[drotto]

6 minutes ago, Rip said:

There is surprisingly amount of info from official sources, with the art books for the Force Awakens and the Last Jedi having some of the greatest excerpts from Lucas's original stories. 

https://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/04/star-wars-the-last-jedi-force-awakens-george-lucas-idea/

 

That really looks like it was intended to be the Son. Knowing Star Wars lore fairly well, I would have loved some of these ideas to be explored.  I do however understand that this would almost veer into fantasy as opposed to science fiction, and would be much harder to present to a general audience. 

[Rip]

May very well been possible. A lot of these ideas were rough.

Here is the caption:

“We’ve seen dead Jedi come back as blue ghosts. Maybe Sith can come back. And maybe there’s some all powerful Sith that’s controlling whatever the dark side is. We did talk a lot about how the final battle frontier for Jedi might be in the spirit realm. So you have to have a bad-guy ghost.”

Personally I thought they started off on the wrong foot right away trying to wedge these new story into a remake of Star Wars rather than a wholly new story.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Rip

[Rip]

For those curious here is a sample of text from MF.com. Nothing here is confirmed true or false, 

• The heroes in the film are on a quest to find an ancient Sith Dagger, which is actually The Dagger of Mortis. What it is called this in the film is unknown. The Dagger is the key to freeing an ancient evil and has an inscription that pre-dates any language known in the Galaxy. This evil is The Son, played by Matt Smith. It is unknown whether Smith is called The Son. This was Lucas’ original plan in his treatment for the Sequel Trilogy with direct references to The Clone Wars. It will be made accessible to the general audience.

• A major aspect of the early part of the film is attempting to decipher the text. C-3P0 attempts to read an inscription on the Dagger yet cannot read it due to his programming. 3P0’s eyes turn red and it takes them to the Second Death Star on Endor and a device of the Emperor’s. This device - with the dagger as its key, opens a portal to what is The World Between Worlds from Star Wars Rebels, where The Son is trapped, waiting to be released. The World Between Worlds will be made accessible to the general audience.

• The Son is freed with the Dagger of Mortis, the one thing that can destroy him.
• The Son's been pulling all the strings and everything has led to this moment. The First Order, Snoke, Ben’s fall, Luke’s exile - everything.

• The Son takes on the form of Palpatine and Rey, among others.
• Rey’s vision of her Sith self was in fact a vision of The Son in the future taking on her form.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Rip

[drotto]

6 minutes ago, Rip said:

May very well been possible. A lot of these ideas were rough.

Here is the caption:

“We’ve seen dead Jedi come back as blue ghosts. Maybe Sith can come back. And maybe there’s some all powerful Sith that’s controlling whatever the dark side is. We did talk a lot about how the final battle frontier for Jedi might be in the spirit realm. So you have to have a bad-guy ghost.”

Personally I thought they started off on the wrong foot right away trying to wedge these new story into a remake of Star Wars rather than a wholly new story.

It does seem between the Mortis arc and the World between Worlds story, that this is were the movies were heading.  I have a feeling a lot of this will come out over the next few years as people are no longer contractually bound to keep quiet, and the management changes that seem to be coming.

[Mr Sneeze]

27 minutes ago, Rip said:

May very well been possible. A lot of these ideas were rough.

Here is the caption:

“We’ve seen dead Jedi come back as blue ghosts. Maybe Sith can come back. And maybe there’s some all powerful Sith that’s controlling whatever the dark side is. We did talk a lot about how the final battle frontier for Jedi might be in the spirit realm. So you have to have a bad-guy ghost.”

Personally I thought they started off on the wrong foot right away trying to wedge these new story into a remake of Star Wars rather than a wholly new story.

Bingo!

[UnboxingTreasures]

Do the events of the Skywalker sequels (episodes 7-9) allow for 'The Child' to still be alive?

[drotto]

22 minutes ago, NamesJay said:

Do the events of the Skywalker sequels (episodes 7-9) allow for 'The Child' to still be alive?

In my mind yes.  The plot is actually fairly narrow in focus (not scope).  Lots of room for side stories and characters not mentioned. 

[bentbryan]

Things I liked about TROS:

1. Chewbacca finally got his medal!    Seriously, this was way overdue. 

2. Rey and Kylo when on-screen together whether talking or fighting. Awesome performance.

3. The scene where Luke and Leia are training. I keep hearing about the big middle finger to RJ but I feel this part greatly reduces the ridiculousness of Mary Poppins Space Ranger and is actually JJ throwing RJ a bone. 

4. Lando!!! Each time they showed him in the Falcon with his laugh I had an ear to ear grin and maybe a little welling up. 

5. John Williams cameo 

Saw it again this am, sticking with my 6/10 rating. Overall I liked it, probably my favorite of the ST but not as good as R1.  

[I like pie]

3 hours ago, Rip said:

However it (TRoS) does help explain Rey vast powers. Even in the Last Jedi there are many hints to Rey being from something possibly more. Luke even talks about how Rey went straight to the darkness, there were other clues as well which is why I've thought she had something to do with Palpatine. 

You can go back to Episode VII, when she fought Ren at the end. Her lunge fighting technique mimics Palpatine from Episode III.

[Mr Sneeze]

1 minute ago, I like pie said:

3 hours ago, Rip said:

However it (TRoS) does help explain Rey vast powers. Even in the Last Jedi there are many hints to Rey being from something possibly more. Luke even talks about how Rey went straight to the darkness, there were other clues as well which is why I've thought she had something to do with Palpatine. 

You can go back to Episode VII, when she fought Ren at the end. Her lunge fighting technique mimics Palpatine from Episode III.

That's interesting!