Optimistic Pricing 1 1

[Kwan Chang]

11 minutes ago, NelsonAI said:

Don't blame Rob for that hot mess. The pencils were all Jim.

But even a great artist can have a bad day.  Blame the editors.

nah.  id rather blame scott williams for not inking it :)  @stinkininkin

 

 

[stinkininkin]

1 hour ago, Kwan Chang said:

nah.  id rather blame scott williams for not inking it :)  @stinkininkin

 

 

See?  It always goes back to blaming inkers.

[comix4fun]

8 minutes ago, stinkininkin said:

See?  It always goes back to blaming inkers.

Why didn't you save us, Scott? 
WHY!?!?

[Kwan Chang]

20 minutes ago, stinkininkin said:

See?  It always goes back to blaming inkers.

who else to blame ?  the penciller ?  we cant ? aren't they the REAL artists here ?

[John E.]

Will Farrell *yelling*: Staaat!!!!

[JadeGiant]

On 1/12/2020 at 10:11 AM, stinkininkin said:

See?  It always goes back to blaming inkers.

bah, those stinkin inkers

[Doc McCoy]

Not sure how optimistic it is given his proclivity for moving & selling art, but over a 50% increase in price in the span of about a month's time.

Posted & sold be Chris Bachalo in December of 2019 for $700 

https://galleryzero.bigcartel.com/product/doctor-strange-pumpkins-one

Posted today by Mike Burkey on CAF & his website for $1500

https://www.comicartfans.com/ForSaleDetails.asp?ArtId=4105851

http://www.romitaman.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=23566&ArtistId=1159

[shady64]

22 minutes ago, Doc McCoy said:

Not sure how optimistic it is given his proclivity for moving & selling art, but over a 50% increase in price in the span of about a month's time.

Posted & sold be Chris Bachalo in December of 2019 for $700 

https://galleryzero.bigcartel.com/product/doctor-strange-pumpkins-one

Posted today by Mike Burkey on CAF & his website for $1500

https://www.comicartfans.com/ForSaleDetails.asp?ArtId=4105851

http://www.romitaman.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=23566&ArtistId=1159

Geez, may as well wait for Bachalo's next art drop.  Seems like he always has a Strange piece or two, often with similar composition.

[Rick2you2]

What am I missing here?

It is by Christoph Blain, and apparently, this is page 22 of AMERTUME APACHE.

The bargain price is only 20,000 euro's. And if you like it, there are a whole bunch more which were just posted from 8,000 euro's to 20,000 euro's, as well as some colored pieces which are a bit more.

I am guessing this was a misprint, and he meant to write 200.00 euro's. Tony Daniel made a similar mistake on two other posts recently (I sent him some email about them).

But if this is really 20,000 euro's, he is really over-valuing the market for this puppy. I don't think I would go for 200 euro's.

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Rick2you2

[vodou]

39 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

What am I missing here?

It is by Christoph Blain, and apparently, this is page 22 of AMERTUME APACHE.

The bargain price is only 20,000 euro's. And if you like it, there are a whole bunch more which were just posted from 8,000 euro's to 20,000 euro's, as well as some colored pieces which are a bit more.

I am guessing this was a misprint, and he meant to write 200.00 euro's. Tony Daniel made a similar mistake on two other posts recently (I sent him some email about them).

But if this is really 20,000 euro's, he is really over-valuing the market for this puppy. I don't think I would go for 200 euro's.

 

Price aside, that's some beautiful work...puts 65% of all comics creators to shame. Just that one example.

[Rick2you2]

10 minutes ago, vodou said:

Price aside, that's some beautiful work...puts 65% of all comics creators to shame. Just that one example.

But does the market justify 20,000 euro's? 

From my perspective, I'm not enamored with it.

If I were in a buying frame of mind for something different, I would go with this Infantino/DeZuniga piece for $300 in CAT:

 

[exitmusicblue]

 

[exitmusicblue]

On-target lyrics to boot:

Flies are buzzing round my head
Vultures circling the dead
Picking up every last crumb
The big fish eat the little ones
The big fish eat the little ones
Not my problem, give me some

You can try the best you can
You can try the best you can
The best you can is good enough
If you try the best you can
If you try the best you can
The best you can is good enough

 

This one's optimistic
This one went to market
This one just came out of the swamp
This one dropped a payload
Fodder for the animals
Living on animal farm

You can try the best you can
You can try the best you can
The best you can is good enough
If you try the best you can
If you try the best you can
The best you can is good enough

 

Oh oh oh
Oh oh oh
Ah ah ah
Oh oh oh

 

I'd really like to help you, man
I'd really like to help you, man
Nervous messed up marionettes
Floating around on a prison ship

You can try the best you can
You can try the best you can
The best you can is good enough
You can try the best you can
You can try the best you can

Dinosaurs roaming the Earth
Dinosaurs roaming the Earth
Dinosaurs roaming the Earth

Edited January 24, 2020 by exitmusicblue

[vodou]

47 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

But does the market justify 20,000 euro's? 

From my perspective, I'm not enamored with it.

If I were in a buying frame of mind for something different, I would go with this Infantino/DeZuniga piece for $300 in CAT

I wrote "price aside..." for a reason - I don't know the market for that artist and that's not what I was commenting on. The Arak is an abomination in comparison. If I had the money and had to pick one or the other, I'd pay 20k for something exceptional long before I'd ever (and really never) pay $300 for junk. Arak is junk (in case I wasn't clear ).

[ESeffinga]

Indeed. And I say this as someone that was offered THE Arak cover from my childhood just this week for a very reasonable price.
I turned down the opportunity, because I'm just not a nostalgia collector, and don't really have a place for it. But I did pause for a moment to think about it.

While you may not care for the Amertume Apache page, it certainly has a solid style and a certain level of mastery about it. A little stiff for my taste, but it's very solid, and the drawing is right on. Where as that Arak page you've posted, the background figures are the best bits of drawing. The large Arak figure in the top panel is not good at all (why does he have such a small head?), and the bottom 2-shot is pretty foul. Now with a tiny face in the middle of his head?

I can't tell you why the AA page is the price it is. Frankly it's not a book I know, or my area of expertise. I only know that a lot of European comic artists often run circles around their U.S. brethren, where the art is concerned. I have only a limited knowledge of the creators from Europe. I too find myself looking at their work a fair bit, when I can. I only wish I'd had better avenues to buy some of it when the art was cheaper. I have a number of favorites that I'd happily buy today if I ever stumble across them (and they aren't priced into the stratosphere), but it's certainly a different market. And just as European buyers ahve to familiarize themselves with the US art market, we have to put in the same work to get in on their thing. And most folks from the other side of the pond speak a lot better English than I do French or Italian, for instance.

 

AND for the record, great drawing in comics isn't the only important thing, but when that there is drawing on the page that is the only thing notable about the piece in question, the drawing ought to at least be pretty good, yeah?
Otherwise wonky drawing of wonky character in wonky scene with nothing of note happening? I mean, make the man look depressed or whatever you are trying to convey. He looks like he's trying to not float an air biscuit in polite company. And the second panel, he is a blank. Like someone badly copying a face out of a Hogarth how-to book. He's talking, but his mouth is closed?

Edited January 24, 2020 by ESeffinga

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, ESeffinga said:

Indeed. And I say this as someone that was offered THE Arak cover from my childhood just this week for a very reasonable price.
I turned down the opportunity, because I'm just not a nostalgia collector, and don't really have a place for it. But I did pause for a moment to think about it.

While you may not care for the Amertume Apache page, it certainly has a solid style and a certain level of mastery about it. A little stiff for my taste, but it's very solid, and the drawing is right on. Where as that Arak page you've posted, the background figures are the best bits of drawing. The large Arak figure in the top panel is not good at all (why does he have such a small head?), and the bottom 2-shot is pretty foul. Now with a tiny face in the middle of his head?

I can't tell you why the AA page is the price it is. Frankly it's not a book I know, or my area of expertise. I only know that a lot of European comic artists often run circles around their U.S. brethren, where the art is concerned. I have only a limited knowledge of the creators from Europe. I too find myself looking at their work a fair bit, when I can. I only wish I'd had better avenues to buy some of it when the art was cheaper. I have a number of favorites that I'd happily buy today if I ever stumble across them (and they aren't priced into the stratosphere), but it's certainly a different market. And just as European buyers ahve to familiarize themselves with the US art market, we have to put in the same work to get in on their thing. And most folks from the other side of the pond speak a lot better English than I do French or Italian, for instance.

 

AND for the record, great drawing in comics isn't the only important thing, but when that there is drawing on the page that is the only thing notable about the piece in question, the drawing ought to at least be pretty good, yeah?
Otherwise wonky drawing of wonky character in wonky scene with nothing of note happening? I mean, make the man look depressed or whatever you are trying to convey. He looks like he's trying to not float an air biscuit in polite company. And the second panel, he is a blank. Like someone badly copying a face out of a Hogarth how-to book. He's talking, but his mouth is closed?

The point of this thread is optimistic pricing, not "how brilliant is the art? In several of your posts on this thread, including this one, you keep evaluating quality of art instead of justifying the price based on the art itself. Remember the price point I am focusing on with Arak is in the $200-$300 range. Masterpieces are not expected. For a piece to command 20,000 euro's, or $22,000, it better be dam'n close to brilliant, involve a well-known market or both.  For example, I am not a fan of Kirby, but based on comp's, I expect that a lot of posted pages are justifiable.

Does anyone know if this page is justifiable at $22,000?

As a piece of art, the Amertume Apache page does have a style, and a stiff style, as you have noted. Most artists have a regular style, too, be it Kirby or Infantino or DeZuniga or anyone else. That's a matter of taste, and I am a big fan of DeZuniga. In terms of subject matter, I don't have much interest in "Spaghetti Western" artwork, but again, the point is should it be valued at roughly $22,000? That is not a particularly collectible subject matter, and its lack of familiarity to most collectors works against the pricing. It is also a fairly conventional panel page, although better than a 6-panel. Nothing about the border work interests me. For $22,000, I expect better than a series of rectangles with art in them (unless the art itself is extremely good) and stiff artwork.

I disagree whole-heartedly about your views on the Arak page. I think it is very good for the style it is following and definitely conveys the mood for that type of subject matter. That is not the more typical style for superheroes but more of an old-fashioned tableu sort of feel. I do not think the characters body parts are disproportionate, but the quality of art is not about the scientific rendering of scale. It is about rendering of mood, artistically, and how well it blends with the story. I agree that the bottom panel is not brilliant, but I think it has a nice balance to it, with two heads on either side of a window. Again, $300.

I wouldn't complain too much about a word balloon above a character whose mouth is closed. The Amertume Apage page has 3 of them. Panel 2 has fingers on it which an amateur could have drawn better. Panel 7 is supposed to be a man leaning forward. He is pitched to almost fall over. And that bottom panel has a woman missing her right hand. But those are just details. At $220, I could see a buy. At $22,000, forget it.

 

[dichotomy]

Grandpa is red hot right now no doubt, but $15,000???
 

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1603329

[Rick2you2]

26 minutes ago, dichotomy said:

Grandpa is red hot right now no doubt, but $15,000???
 

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1603329

You get the point. Questionable in my mind, too, after a quck search on Comic Art Fans. 

Why is that artist hot? The work is very good, no question about that. 

[ESeffinga]

Rick,

TL/DR response is: I don't have good answers for you.

I was responding to you, and also to Vodou, who mentioned his feelings on the 2 pages compared to each other, and how it impacts his feeling on the pricing relative to each other. I like those kinds of conversations and I tend to agree far more with his assessment than yours regarding the examples you chose to roll with. And yes, I do tend to look at the art when figuring values out for myself. When I look at work, I find that I tend to be far more objective than most. It's tough in a market where nostalgia is king. Odd man out and all that.  I know I'm an outlier in this regard, as there are a lot of folks in the OA art game who tend to be very comfortable in buying up lousy draftsmanship for bonkers $$$ as they are for buying genuinely good work for the same money. Don't like my assessments, you can feel free to ignore me altogether. I think there is even a feature for that here on the board, if you find I drift a little too off topic, and I write too much. I know it's a problem. I try to bring whatever insight I can to a topic, as the mood strikes. Most times I just skip writing altogether. Often I'm a broken record. We all have our interests. Mine is in art, the making of it, the drafstmanship and craft of it, and the viewing of it. I read these money threads and chuck-in as best I am equipped to.

I don't think Arak has any kind of cachet anywhere. Not just as a lack of artistic achievement for anyone, but in the hobby as a whole. I can't think of the last time Arak came up in conversation anywhere other than as a joke between myself and friends, since I had more than a couple Arak comics at 7 years old. So why would anyone park ANY money there? I've already said I'm not fluent in the European market enough to know I can't assess why that particular page is 22K, beyond the artist's work is leaps and bounds better than what was presented as your preference for a $300 option. We've already established you don't know the answer to this 22K question either. Just that presumably you wanted to compare good apples to bad ones. Hence my critique of the alternative provided, which let's be frank is poor, no matter how it is cut. You want to argue it's relative cheap price as some sort of threshold for what is acceptable in place of the expensive page, and asking a largely not-european centric board to justify it for you? I'm sure I could find a ton of examples of native-american characters (poorly) represented in comics, and still not get any closer to explaining why that Amertume Apache page is stickered like it is, or important to it's would be audience. As close as I get is that it's Blueberry, which is a HUGE character originated by Moebius in the 60s. Blueberry art has LONG been a competitive market, and has quite a track record. Where Chrisophe Blain falls on the respectability ladder, I don't know. Is he more Herb Trimpe than Moebius, not from what I've seen. Maybe more Sean Murphy in his pricing optimism? Could be?

You say: "its lack of familiarity to most collectors works against the pricing". Is this because you are not familiar with it? Or because the people on this board aren't familiar with it? Do you really think this board is representative of the majority of collectors? The world is HUGE. The fans of Manga are legion. In Europe, the cons are massive, and take over entire towns/cities, not unlike SDCC. Except a lot of the characters present there would be totally foreign to the folks on this board. They certainly are to me, even after 30 years of art collecting. Even with me visiting foreign dealer's sites looking at the work they sell. I can't even possibly keep up. The prices and the artists, and the characters are all a world away sometimes. But it doesn't mean it doesn't sell or isn't worth it to them. Is it optimistic? Maybe. Is that Arak page optimistic at $300? It is to me.

I could buy a cheese burger from McDonalds. It will taste like and leave me feeling like after I eat it. But it's a buck. Some dudes are not only satisfied with that burger, but think anything more than that is crazy? Five Guys? Meh!
We could buy a Kobe beef burger for $250. If I'm only ever about eating McDonalds, that $250 burger might seem like a seriously stupid idea. And yet, people do buy them. I don't see them go in and order them, and I don't see them being eaten, I don't have a record of it taking place, but I know it happens, just as it happens with McDonalds burgers. So, maybe someone hip to the Euro market knows something concrete and chimes in. Schools us all. I'm looking forward to that. Until then, we work with what we have.

_

Why does Raphael Grampá ask $15K? Because, like Jim Lee, he often gets it, or something close to it. Supply/demand, as far as that goes. He is hot. He is good. Who else new is supposed to get that kind of money?
Comics is littered with dudes reaching high. Go back and read my responses in that Jim Lee thread about the commission prices from Lake Como.  OA collectors ask artists to shut up when they talk about wanting a percentage of future sales as their work increases in price over time. But we also don't want to pay them a premium when they are trying to sell their work today? That's trying to have it both ways, IMO.

 

[vodou]

2 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

Remember the price point I am focusing on with Arak is in the $200-$300 range. Masterpieces are not expected.

Perhaps not expected but no doubt can be found. I do exactly that at least five times a year. So no, I'm not tripping over those opportunities daily but every other month or so - in that exact price range, I see true genius and snap it up faster than you can type WTF?!

This is the optimistic pricing thread...$300 for that atrocity Arak is very much optimistic for any collector with taste. Fanboys will blindly buy such 'things' up, of course, because...at least it's not from Star Comics or something, right?

A moment regarding $300 here...the current Federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr. Forget that you're an attorney that makes far above median/medium income nationally or for your state (NJ) and certainly nowhere close to minimum wage, and put yourself in the shoes of the burger flipper. Pre-tax...$300 = just over 41 hours of work. That's pre-tax. Would you put in that many hours to "earn" this art? Then why would anyone else? So either it's a rich man's game (attorney, MDs, and the like) or...it's an overpriced POS

The only reason anybody even looks twice at it, at that price (or really "any price") is because everything else has been run up so much. That alone does not justify a purchase of garbage at a (any) price though. Junk is junk, this was a $5 page 25 years ago (when 2X Silver Kirby solid superhero material was $1500) and still should be today...for the intrinsic value of the paper it was drawn on, that can likely be turned over and used again...but no more than that.