When pencils and lightboxing make it two originals... 0

[bluechip]

On 12/31/2019 at 1:29 AM, delekkerste said:

Yes, he lightboxed a number of his '70s covers. I'd be curious to learn when he started doing so - I'm guessing around 1975, plus or minus a year, but I've never seen or heard a definitive answer. 

I became aware of Palmer's lightboxing during this auction for Howard the Duck 16, a cover that I liked a lot but found hard to value since it wasn't the final image and worried that if I purchased it then when I or my heirs went to sell it I/they would hear "it's not the published cover".   So not knowing what to bid I was too low.  

Edited January 7, 2020 by bluechip

[aokartman]

8 minutes ago, bluechip said:

I became aware of Palmer's lightboxing during this auction for Howard the Duck 16, a cover that I liked a lot but found hard to value since it wasn't the final image and worried that if I purchased it then when I or my heirs went to sell it I/they would hear "it's not the published cover".   So not knowing what to bid I was too low.  

Nice cover for somebody.  Great candidate for a title overlay, a little mat board, and frame.

[Brian Peck]

New artists that draw pencil covers and either digital ink or another artist inks it separately is one thing. There are alot of their pencils out there in terms of penciled covers. Its the older artists when the pencils and the inks done on the same page and the inker lightboxes is where the originals pencils have even more value than just pencils for a cover. Alot of 60s, 70s, and 80s pencilers, John Romita, John Buscema (his earlier 60s full pencils), Dave Cockrum, Gene Colan, when the inker lightboxes and leaves the pencils untouched. original pencils for them are tough to come by as most have been inked over, Gene Colan is a great example, his 70s full pencils are gorgeous and finding those untouched especially covers is rare and for me increases the value alot. Even unpublished pencils only covers are a great find. I have a sweet Red Sonja #15 unused pencils cover by Dave Cockrum (published he penciled and inked). He drew Red Sonja in the same pose but the background and Vampires are different. Full pencils from the lat 70s by Dave are very rare and one of the reasons its one of the gems of my collection.

 

 

[bluechip]

3 hours ago, Brian Peck said:

New artists that draw pencil covers and either digital ink or another artist inks it separately is one thing. There are alot of their pencils out there in terms of penciled covers. Its the older artists when the pencils and the inks done on the same page and the inker lightboxes is where the originals pencils have even more value than just pencils for a cover. Alot of 60s, 70s, and 80s pencilers, John Romita, John Buscema (his earlier 60s full pencils), Dave Cockrum, Gene Colan, when the inker lightboxes and leaves the pencils untouched. original pencils for them are tough to come by as most have been inked over, Gene Colan is a great example, his 70s full pencils are gorgeous and finding those untouched especially covers is rare and for me increases the value alot. Even unpublished pencils only covers are a great find. I have a sweet Red Sonja #15 unused pencils cover by Dave Cockrum (published he penciled and inked). He drew Red Sonja in the same pose but the background and Vampires are different. Full pencils from the lat 70s by Dave are very rare and one of the reasons its one of the gems of my collection.

 

 

Some people confuse things like this with prelims, but they're not.  A prelim is a deliberately rough sketch often on a smaller board (or piece of typing paper) never intended to be the final.   Whereas pieces like this are essentially a "first version" of the image that the artist revisited to make slight revisions.  Some inkers make changes when as well when they lightbox a piece, but when it's the same penciller rethinking and sljghtly revising his or her own work, I find it even more interesting and desirable.

Edited January 8, 2020 by bluechip

[vodou]

11 hours ago, Brian Peck said:

Alot of 60s, 70s, and 80s pencilers, John Romita, John Buscema (his earlier 60s full pencils), Dave Cockrum, Gene Colan, when the inker lightboxes and leaves the pencils untouched. original pencils for them are tough to come by as most have been inked over, Gene Colan is a great example, his 70s full pencils are gorgeous and finding those untouched especially covers is rare and for me increases the value alot.

For whatever reason, the habit of collectors has been to commission Mike Zeck to subsequently ink his pencil only covers that were separately airbrushed for final publication by Phil Zimmelman. In time -imo- collectors and the market will come to appreciate and much more highly value those that escaped such short-sighted abuse.

Re: "imo" above, those Byrne X-Men pencil pieces for the Editions Deesse portfolio that were later inked by George Perez, by collector commission of course, = awful.

[glendgold]

13 hours ago, bluechip said:

I became aware of Palmer's lightboxing during this auction for Howard the Duck 16, a cover that I liked a lot but found hard to value since it wasn't the final image and worried that if I purchased it then when I or my heirs went to sell it I/they would hear "it's not the published cover".   So not knowing what to bid I was too low.  

I bid just the right amount on that one.

Speaking of impossible to value: Palmer lightboxed a lot of Gene's cover pencils (and some of Kane's on ToD).

Apologies for the ancient scan.  The discoloration in the center is an result of joining smaller scans. I was lucky enough to buy this a while ago - lucky also because I knew what it was and the owner priced it accordingly. This looks a lot like the cover to HtD 12, and it...is? Was supposed to be?  This is the cover Tom lightboxed and sent back to Marvel.  It got lost in the mail, so Tom had to lightbox it a second time, and that's what got published.  (Because it always works this way, the second Palmer lightbox - i.e. the published one, but also sorta kinda a recreation of the original cover - had just shown up at auction so I had a sense of what the market thought the published version was worth.)  So this is an unpublished, lightboxed cover, and it's also the original version of the cover, but it's not the pencil cover, which I would value higher than either of the lightboxed versions.

Whew.

I value my unpublished lightbox at eleventy jillion dollars.

 

[bluechip]

6 hours ago, glendgold said:

I bid just the right amount on that one.

Speaking of impossible to value: Palmer lightboxed a lot of Gene's cover pencils (and some of Kane's on ToD).

Apologies for the ancient scan.  The discoloration in the center is an result of joining smaller scans. I was lucky enough to buy this a while ago - lucky also because I knew what it was and the owner priced it accordingly. This looks a lot like the cover to HtD 12, and it...is? Was supposed to be?  This is the cover Tom lightboxed and sent back to Marvel.  It got lost in the mail, so Tom had to lightbox it a second time, and that's what got published.  (Because it always works this way, the second Palmer lightbox - i.e. the published one, but also sorta kinda a recreation of the original cover - had just shown up at auction so I had a sense of what the market thought the published version was worth.)  So this is an unpublished, lightboxed cover, and it's also the original version of the cover, but it's not the pencil cover, which I would value higher than either of the lightboxed versions.

Whew.

I value my unpublished lightbox at eleventy jillion dollars.

 

Very cool.   The term "recreation" would be incorrect because this occurred as part of the production process and before the book was published.   To my way of thinking, anything which has art on it and is done as part of the initial -- original -- production process qualified as "original" art.  Any recreation, by definition, would have to occur after the final published art.   

 

 

[bluechip]

On 1/8/2020 at 5:11 AM, glendgold said:

I bid just the right amount on that one.

Speaking of impossible to value: Palmer lightboxed a lot of Gene's cover pencils (and some of Kane's on ToD).

Apologies for the ancient scan.  The discoloration in the center is an result of joining smaller scans. I was lucky enough to buy this a while ago - lucky also because I knew what it was and the owner priced it accordingly. This looks a lot like the cover to HtD 12, and it...is? Was supposed to be?  This is the cover Tom lightboxed and sent back to Marvel.  It got lost in the mail, so Tom had to lightbox it a second time, and that's what got published.  (Because it always works this way, the second Palmer lightbox - i.e. the published one, but also sorta kinda a recreation of the original cover - had just shown up at auction so I had a sense of what the market thought the published version was worth.)  So this is an unpublished, lightboxed cover, and it's also the original version of the cover, but it's not the pencil cover, which I would value higher than either of the lightboxed versions.

Whew.

I value my unpublished lightbox at eleventy jillion dollars.

 

So what happens to the pencils when the inker lightboxes it for the final.   I could imagine that the inker, being only obligated to deliver an inked cover, might want to keep the pencils.   And I could also imagine the original penciller thinking they should be returned to him.   And I could also imagine Marvel, upon learning that you lightboxed a cover they paid you to ink, would insist on having both the original pencil piece as well as the inked version.  

 

 

[glendgold]

7 minutes ago, bluechip said:

So what happens to the pencils when the inker lightboxes it for the final.   I could imagine that the inker, being only obligated to deliver an inked cover, might want to keep the pencils.   And I could also imagine the original penciller thinking they should be returned to him.   And I could also imagine Marvel, upon learning that you lightboxed a cover they paid you to ink, would insist on having both the original pencil piece as well as the inked version.  

 

 

I think you're overimagining it about Marvel. The other imaginings make sense, though.

[Blastaar]

Have there been any stories of inkers messing up covers while inking over pencils? I would imagine this has to have happen more than just a handful of times. 

[ESeffinga]

Vince Colletta over Kirby?

[Rick2you2]

13 hours ago, Blastaar said:

Have there been any stories of inkers messing up covers while inking over pencils? I would imagine this has to have happen more than just a handful of times. 

More than a few artists doing pencils have privately complained that they don’t like the way their pencils were inked by so-and-so on a particular piece.

[bluechip]

On 1/30/2020 at 1:35 PM, ESeffinga said:

Vince Colletta over Kirby?

I can tolerate Colletta's inks more than most, but when I see the issues he did of Fantastic Four I want to cry.

Edited February 2, 2020 by bluechip

[Blastaar]

On 1/31/2020 at 3:56 AM, Rick2you2 said:

More than a few artists doing pencils have privately complained that they don’t like the way their pencils were inked by so-and-so on a particular piece.

I'm talking more like I screwed up and you need to do another cover. Without a tightrope back then it seems like there would be a margin for mistakes and accidents. 

[AndyFish]

Incredibly complicated but remember this when determining "value"-- it's completely set by the owner of the piece, end of story.   It doesn't matter if you the buyer (or even you and every other buyer) thinks the price is outrageous-- the price that the owner will sell at is set by them because you're talking about one of a kind products.    

This includes pencils, whether traditional or blue line and inks directly on them or light boxed.   There is ONE of these.   For me, inks that are lightboxed present a dual level of collectibility because having the inked and PUBLISHED version of a page or cover displayed next to the original pencils is a sight to be seen.

[alxjhnsn]

I thought I'd post my one example. It's a Legion of Super-Heroes page with pencils by Daniel HDR ($100 from Anthony), the inked over blueline version by Bob Wiacek ($40 from Bob at a signing in New Paltz, NY), and the printed page ($3.99 from Bedrock City Comic Company).
 

There are a couple of interesting points:

1. Daniel inked the faces to keep the look that he wanted
2. Bob thought PG looked a little thick waisted in the 2nd panel so he did a little liposuction. If you look closely on the high resolution image on the CAF, you can see the thin blue line from the original outline.

The second bullet backs my theory that the inker always wins. 

Click to see and learn more and to get a bigger picture.

.