February Heritage Auction Really Shaping Up! 2 2

[Rick2you2]

16 minutes ago, grapeape said:

It could be overheated bidding. It could be that cover was a grail for the winner. We can’t go directly to shill.

My concern with throwing shill out every time we don’t understand a bidding history we are doing the devils work. Bad actors creating doubt yes but just do your homework. No matter what I hear as disciplined plans to know FMV and not overspend, I hear the laments of those who break their own rules everyday and show me an example where they went crazy.

Think of the consignor selling that piece. Probably not thrilled to hear murmurs of impropriety. 
 

With eyes wide open I would trust my gut if I thought an auction was tainted. I would however be careful of the things I say without proof.

 Now for those who think shenanigans and price manipulation are one offs or not that bad you can see how it effects the credibility of auctions today.

Let’s make the new owner of the Aparo Cover King or Queen of the Day. If you’re out there please chime in. What motivated you to go hard for this one? I can’t believe out of all the art that we have to ponder the Aparo price mystery looms so intriguing.

It need not be the consignor to buy a piece at an excessive price. If an owner of several pieces wants to maintain or increase the value of what he owns, buy something high, and use it to support the value of your inventory. Don’t forget, this is a thin market. As a potential buyer, that is just as bad.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Rick2you2

[Rick2you2]

3 hours ago, piper said:

I absolutely hate the later covers in the run!

This was the last one. 

[Bronty]

that latter scenario happens every single ha auction - protective bidding.  nothing wrong with it IMO but I understand why some buyers will find it frustrating.   same thing happens in fine art.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Bronty

[JadeGiant]

On 3/7/2020 at 5:13 PM, malvin said:

I follow the McFarlane Hulk market more than the Larsen Spidey and the price for that Hulk panel was insane.  I guess I should be glad I still have a couple of McFarlane Hulk pages.

Malvin

That was my response as well. Glad I picked up my McHulk a while back. I was considering trading up but I am not sure any more. 

[Rick2you2]

14 hours ago, grapeape said:

Buddy I think you might have contributed to a rising Phantom Stranger market. Your respect for the character has made even me look closer at the art. I’m not really suspicious about that auction result. Some items just have their day in the sun.

Also many items went higher then most budgets and I think 20 K is a typical wad that many collectors have budgeted. If certain wish pieces got away you might  see a collector get the Fever for one nice piece from that auction. Sure other comps(lower) or examples(better) May have existed. In the heat of battle bidders simply can lose their minds.

 

In the 1980’s, my parents “ invested” in some expensive Persian rugs because they weren’t being imported anymore and the market seemed locked. What they hadn’t counted on is “substitute goods” consisting of hand made rugs from China and Pakistan (and presumably, India too). For the wool rugs, the wool is different; I can’t tell with the silk rugs, but some dealers can. More importantly, the prices dropped on all the rugs, no matter where made, by 60% or more (not counting some specimen pieces, which are also down). Throw in the fact that these things can last what seems to be forever with minimal maintenance, and you have a permanent oversupply burden.

In case the analogy isn’t clear already, artists continue to produce excellent work, and not all of it is on the computer. Add in the aging population of buyers for the Silver and Bronze Age stuff, including Aparo, and I can’t see spending this kind of money to feed a memory of my past. So count me out off of this hamster wheel. I will continue to buy what I like if the price is for money I can easily absorb. But not this amount.

[grapeape]

4 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

It need not be the consignor to buy a piece at an excessive price. If an owner of several pieces wants to maintain or increase the value of what he owns, buy something high, and use it to support the value of your inventory. Don’t forget, this is a thin market. As a potential buyer, that is just as bad.

Largely I’ve avoided feeling fleeced by auction bidding by knowing what I want to pay way ahead of time. I was the underbidder on two items in 2019 where I was tempted to bid one more time but held tight. It makes me worry less about what evil doers are up to if I don’t go beyond what I was willing to spend.

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by grapeape

[vodou]

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

that latter scenario happens every single ha auction - protective bidding.  nothing wrong with it IMO but I understand why some buyers will find it frustrating.   same thing happens in fine art.

This is no big deal -for the patient- there is always "more art" than "money", so if "the protection" is the only bid out there, eventually supply will overwhelm that rather "limp" demand. It's only chasers that ruin this thing from playing itself out

[RBerman]

4 minutes ago, vodou said:

This is no big deal -for the patient- there is always "more art" than "money", so if "the protection" is the only bid out there, eventually supply will overwhelm that rather "limp" demand. It's only chasers that ruin this thing from playing itself out

Ain't that the truth!

And, on the other hand, if the market is characterized by "chasers" (not just shillers) then rising values have a valid basis.

[piper]

1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

This was the last one. 

Technically, DC had an issue 42 (tie in to Blackest Night GL storyline).

I have most Phantom Stranger appearances through the 80’s and a handful of OA pages. Always on the lookout for more in my price range.

[Rick2you2]

3 hours ago, piper said:

Technically, DC had an issue 42 (tie in to Blackest Night GL storyline).

I have most Phantom Stranger appearances through the 80’s and a handful of OA pages. Always on the lookout for more in my price range.

Always good to have more fans. The Blackest Night tie-in was a gimmick. I don't include it. 

I think I have all appearances (with the possible exception of reprints) through the early 90's, and a fair number after that. Still looking for oddballs, like print copies of Scribblenauts (I have one of the covers).

Don't be surprised if PS shows up again as part of another team book. He is appearing a lot more lately. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Rick2you2

[Will_K]

Does today's stock market close ( down over 7%) affect anyone's HA buying/bidding tonight ??

Edited March 9, 2020 by Will_K

[jjonahjameson11]

5 minutes ago, Will_K said:

Does today's stock market close ( down over 7%) affect anyone's HA buying/bidding tonight ??

Not really...they haven’t any artwork that interests me

[Rick2you2]

4 hours ago, vodou said:

This is no big deal -for the patient- there is always "more art" than "money", so if "the protection" is the only bid out there, eventually supply will overwhelm that rather "limp" demand. It's only chasers that ruin this thing from playing itself out

But that assumes the only impact of high bidding is on the auction rounds. When dealers or sellers see a high auction round price, they can set their own prices based on it. Then potential buyers are faced with the choice of ponying up to the bar and buying the newly repriced item, which now has a comparable auction price, or moving on. If the increase is not too crazy, it logically results in a price reset. Yes, eventually this would catch up on the sellers, but it is likely to be a relatively slow process. 

About that word eventually, as John Meynard Keynes once said, in the long run we are all dead.

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Rick2you2

[vodou]

1 minute ago, Rick2you2 said:

But that assumes the only impact of high bidding is on the auction rounds. When dealers or sellers see a high auction round price, they can set their own prices based on it. Then potential buyers are faced with the choice of ponying up to the bar and buying the newly repriced item, which now has a comparable auction price, or moving on. If the increase is not too crazy, it logically results in a price reset. Yes, eventually this would catch up on the sellers, but it is likely to be a relatively slow process.

The buyers (prospective or actual) always control the market. They just typically don't know it. You do. Cash is king, mostly because it can buy anything...art can buy...? Nada. Until you swap it for cash. Cash is king. You yourself just a few posts above stated, this is not for you, there's plenty of other new PS art that you like just fine for 1/10th (or even 1/100th) the price vintage Adams PS just sold for on HA. You are in control here. Let the sellers that never sell gather dust on their inventory. Who cares. Always more art than money. Always.

[Rick2you2]

2 minutes ago, vodou said:

The buyers (prospective or actual) always control the market. They just typically don't know it. You do. Cash is king, mostly because it can buy anything...art can buy...? Nada. Until you swap it for cash. Cash is king. You yourself just a few posts above stated, this is not for you, there's plenty of other new PS art that you like just fine for 1/10th (or even 1/100th) the price vintage Adams PS just sold for on HA. You are in control here. Let the sellers that never sell gather dust on their inventory. Who cares. Always more art than money. Always.

Correct, over time. But in the short run? Not necessarily. 

Still and all, there is so much inventory out there, one has to wonder if we are beginning to peak.

[piper]

26 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

Always good to have more fans. The Blackest Night tie-in was a gimmick. I don't include it. 

I think I have all appearances (with the possible exception of reprints) through the early 90's, and a fair number after that. Still looking for oddballs, like print copies of Scribblenauts (I have one of the covers).

Don't be surprised if PS shows up again as part of another team book. He is appearing a lot more lately. 

[Rick2you2]

5 hours ago, Bronty said:

that latter scenario happens every single ha auction - protective bidding.  nothing wrong with it IMO but I understand why some buyers will find it frustrating.   same thing happens in fine art.

It isn't morally wrong, if that is what you mean. But it is a market disruption which can warp pricing in the long run. 

[Rick2you2]

Just now, piper said:

There are rumors of bringing back the Shadowpact. Since he just showed up in the Quintessence, and is apparently in an upcoming faceoff with Wonder Woman (in May) over something, after being captured by the Batman Who Laughs, I have to think the pot is beginning to boil. Honestly, I wish they would return the character to his Silver Age roots as a moral compass and conscience guide instead of mysterious overseer of major threatened calamities. Greater human interest possibilities. 

[Bronty]

24 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

It isn't morally wrong, if that is what you mean. But it is a market disruption which can warp pricing in the long run. 

I mean, I would argue it happens in very market where it can be effective.  I think it’s part of the normal operation of a market for all to act in their best interests.   I would guess  large institutional investors that want to sell a stock have been known to prop it up first when needed?   It’s the same thing just in a different arena and scale.    Everyone is always going to look for whatever edge they can get so as long as people get what they pay for , and pay for their winnings, with full disclosure of condition and attribution and other relevant factors, and no misrepresentation by anyone, I say all’s fair.  
 

ie - as long as there’s no deception I don’t think people’s motivations for buying (whether to hang on the wall or use as colouring books or protect an investment ) are relevant.   

Edited March 9, 2020 by Bronty

[Rick2you2]

5 minutes ago, Bronty said:

I mean, I would argue it happens in very market where it can be effective.  I think it’s part of the normal operation of a market for all to act in their best interests.   I would guess  large institutional investors that want to sell a stock have been known to prop it up first when needed?   It’s the same thing just in a different arena and scale.    Everyone is always going to look for whatever edge they can get so as long as people get what they pay for , and pay for their winnings, with full disclosure of condition and attribution and other relevant factors, and no misrepresentation by anyone, I say all’s fair.  

But this isn't the stock market. It is a small, thin market where small changes can have a major impact on private buy/sells. By analogy, it is why we have anti-trust laws. A small number of possible sellers warp the prices which would exist in a free market due to lack of competition. We do have more buyers and sellers, so a closer analog might be ologopoly pricing than sole source pricing.