Why is Spiderman #129 now a mega key comic ? 1 1

[Hamlet]

2 hours ago, Xenosmilus said:

I remember collecting ASM back then #50 wasn't her on my radar.  For the life of me could never find a 238 back then. Personally I think #50 is over rated to this day LOL. I was never a Kingpin fan.

Yeah, I had to mail order 238 in the 80s.  It was only $2, but it wasn’t available locally for me.

 

[Xenosmilus]

1 minute ago, Hamlet said:

Yeah, I had to mail order 238 in the 80s.  It was only $2, but it wasn’t available locally for me.

 

I finally got one, it wasn't for $2 though 

[Lazyboy]

12 hours ago, shadroch said:

With very few exceptions, First Issues dominated the hobby rather than first appearances. By the mid to late 80s, the influx of baseball card dealers and collectors and their Rookie Card mentality stirred the First Appearance  craze. 

While DC fans chased books like Adventure 247 and Flash 105, Marvel fans mostly chased first issues, with the exception of Avengers 4 and the Trilogy.

Yeah, (Marvel) Zombies are very simpleminded.

[RockMyAmadeus]

ASM #129 is a fascinating book. It's fairly unique in comic book history.

Despite the dusty recollections of some, Punisher wasn't at all popular from 1973 (ASM #129 would have come out in November of 1973) until early 1986. In fact, from 1973 to 1979, he didn't appear outside of Amazing Spiderman, with the exception of his two appearances in the magazines Marvel Super Action #1 and Marvel Preview #2 and a single appearance in Giant Size Spiderman #4.  While Punny certainly would have been popular with some in the comic collecting community, to the market, he was a big ho-hum, if people even thought of him at all. Even Conway didn't think he was all that impressive; the more important character in the story was the Jackal, who would become an integral part of the rest of Conway's run on the title, while the Punisher would appear in functionally one more issue (last page of #134 and #135) and then disappear from ASM for the next two+ years (#161-#162.)

While he did appear in flashback form in Power Man Annual #1 (1976), his first full appearance outside of Amazing Spiderman (and GS #4) in a regular comic was Cap #241 (one of my favorites, by the way!), a full 6 years after his first appearance. Apparently, Frank liked drawing him so much, he wanted to use the character again. And there were plans to use him again in DD #167, but for some reason...probably because Miller wasn't happy with the story, or McKenzie's departure as writer was imminent...the story was shelved for a year, to be more fully developed in DD #181-184. But, unfortunately, outside of Spiderman titles (and the two mag appearances in "tryout" form), the total of Punny's appearances in the Marvel universe between 1973 and 1985 were a mere 7: PM Ann #1, Cap #241, an entry in the Handbook of the MU #8, and DD #181-184. And including Spidey titles, his total appearances in the first 12 years of his existence was 26...a little more than two appearances a year, on average. And he completely disappeared for long periods of time (ASM #176 12/77 to Cap #241 1/80, a gap of more than two years, and then from Spect. Spiderman #83 10/83 to Punisher Ltd #1 1/86, an even bigger gap.) For well over four of his first twelve years, he was nowhere to be found. 

For comparison, in that same time period, Moon Knight appeared 71 times in regular books, and 9 times in magazine form.

In fact, ROM appeared 96 times in the same time period.

So, ASM #129 languished, and no one really cared about it, for quite a long time. It wasn't any more special than any other issues around it, and price guides and back issue dealer prices reflected it. It was the same price as issues #125-#140 for that entire time period: roughly $1-$3 (as reflected in the 1986 OPG, published in the spring of 1986.) The fact that it was an Amazing Spiderman book both helped and hurt the book; helped in that Spidey was the #1 or #2 title during this time (back and forth with FF), so there were plenty of copies that were both printed and saved, so it wasn't at all a difficult book to find, and hurt by that very same reason: too many copies of a character that no one cared about.

But it all changed with Punisher Limited Series #1...

And while that issue didn't sell out instantly, by the time #5 came out, #1 was already a $3-$5 back issue, and the market first became aware of ASM #129. During the five months that the limited series was published, copies of ASM #129...which retailers couldn't give away before #1...started quietly being picked up by collectors. All the copies that were sitting in retailer's back issue bins started to disappear. What could be found for $2 in the fall of 1985 became $3 by December, then $4 by January, then $5 by February. And it wasn't a panic by any means...just an organic discovery of a character that had suddenly become pretty cool, and collectors (and savvy investors) started clearing out back stock all over the country.

1986, as mentioned before, was really a watershed year in the history of comics. The first year of the "anti-hero", the last issue of the Punisher limited series would be followed the next month by the first issue of The Dark Knight, and then later in the year, Watchmen. Alan Moore was continuing his tour de force over in Swamp Thing, and Chaykin was re-creating The Shadow to critical acclaim. "Grips" by Silver & Vigil was popular, and "Faust", the ultimate expression of violence in comics up to that point, would appear shortly thereafter. And of course, Wolverine had become the most popular X-Man. As the Black & White explosion of the mid 80s reached and passed its zenith, it was replaced with "grim and gritty characters"; quasi-realistic, ultra-violent (for the genre), and badarse were what comics fans wanted, and the Punisher fit the bill to a "T."

Marvel, as always slow to react, didn't anticipate the effect the limited series would have on the collecting public, so Punny didn't appear again until ASM #284, 8 months after Ltd #5 came out. But then, Zeck did another stunning cover for ASM #285, that came out in late '86, and then the regular series launched in April of '87 (on sale), and for the next three years, demand for all things Punisher just grew and grew. 

As for ASM #129, by the end of the mini-series in early 1986, collectors everywhere started buying copies. Prices were at $5, then $10-$15 by the summer, where they remained for the rest of 1986 and into 1987. Then, after the launch of the regular series, prices could not keep up with demand. By the summer of 1987, it was a $25-$30 book, and by the end of that year, it was closing in on $50...pretty astonishing for this formerly unloved $2 "run" book.

The Punisher series chugged along as an "every six weeks" publication through 1987 and into 1988, then went monthly with issue #10...which, interestingly enough, saw a dip in orders (probably because of the increase in frequency) from issues #1-8. #9-11 would be the lowest ordered issues at Cap City for the series until issue #73, the Dec, 1992 issue. Sales for the title would continue to go up for the rest of the decade. At this point, Hulk #181 and ASM #129 achieved rough parity, and would maintain that parity until the mid-90s.

1988 was the year when Marvel figured out that they had a hit on their hands, and Punny started appearing in other titles; Strange Tales, Daredevil, and Spectacular Spiderman all featured Punisher stories that year. ASM #129, meanwhile, a $50 book at the beginning of the year, would become a $75 one by the end. Punisher became popular enough that Marvel decided to launch another solo Punisher title, Punisher War Journal, in August of that year (Nov. cover date.) This, too, would be published every 6 weeks until issue #8, when it also went monthly. 

1989 was really the breakout year for ASM #129 and Hulk #181. Both books hovered around $75 at the beginning of the year, but the most anticipated event was the meeting of the two in Punisher War Journal #6 and #7, which came out in March and April of 1989, and that was like feeding rabid dogs. Sales for the series went nuclear, with issue #6 selling a whopping 55,300 copies through Cap City alone...15,000 copies more than ASM #300 the year before, and more than any issue of Liefeld's New Mutants except #96-97 and #100 the following year...and this was a full year before the "Speculator Craze" with people buying cases of "hot books."

Even with the mania surrounding Batman, you couldn't touch a Near Mint (or, really, much of anything below Fine) copy of ASM #129 for less than $125 by the summer of 1989. Also in 1989, the Punisher Magazine, reprinting older Punisher tales, was launched, which put Punisher into three ongoing publications a month. That would expand, in 1992, to another monthly title (Punisher War Zone) and a plethora of specials, minis, one-shots, and guest appearances. 

By 1990, the dam broke loose, and Punisher started appearing everywhere...and every Punisher appearance became a guaranteed best seller. By the summer of 1990, ASM #129 was a $200 book, and, while showing some resistance to prices finally, it would still reach the $250 mark...the high water mark of the 90s...by the summer of 1991, and stay there for about 2-3 years. From 1990-1992, but especially in 1992, the only Marvel characters to beat Punisher in appearances were Wolverine and Spidey. Wolverine appeared in an astonishing 121 separate comics (which included 24 Marvel Comics Presents appearances), Spidey had 108, while Punisher appeared in 70. Ghost Rider clocks in at 58.

For the last time in their respective histories, Hulk #181 and ASM #129 traded at par, and were easily swapped for the other.

With the market crash of 1993-1996, everything took a dive. ASM #129 copies were hard to find on the market, because everyone who had paid the "crazy" prices of 1990-1993 were reluctant to lose. Economic reality...and eBay and the internet...broke that. By the late 90s, the Punisher was old news. All his titles had been cancelled in 1995, with a short "reboot" that lasted a short 18 issues, a bizarre supernatural Wrightson mini-series in 1998, and then cancelled again until Ennis revived him in 2000. Meanwhile, prices for ASM #129 continued to slide throughout the rest of the decade; it could be bought in "NM" condition on eBay for $100 or less by the year 2000. 

Since then, ASM #129 has seen its ups and downs in the CGC era: the high sale for the 00s for a 9.8 was $14,430 in 2008, a price that wouldn't be beat again until 2017, with the all time high of $16,730 set in 2018. In VF 8.0, the high of $1670 was again set in 2018, with steady increases from 2004 to 2016 from $400 to $1,000. In VG 4.0, the book pretty much stayed in the $100-$300 range until 2016, and now hovers at around $500.

Hulk #181, understandably, left it in the dust two decades ago. That said, however, if Punisher ever achieves the popularity that Wolverine has, there's nothing preventing the book from reaching parity with Hulk #181 in the future at some point.

 

 

[Logan510]

It's amazing how someone can have such detailed recollections of events that they didn't experience for themselves but only read about years after the fact.

Truly amazing.

[RockMyAmadeus]

26 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

It's amazing how someone can have such detailed recollections of events that they didn't experience for themselves but only read about years after the fact.

Truly amazing.

I know, right...?

It's like, how does anyone know anything about the Revolutionary War, or the Civil War, or ancient Egypt, or anything that happened before our lifetimes...? We didn't experience any of that for ourselves, and only read about them years after the fact! 

WEIRD!

[Logan510]

The difference here is some of us actually experienced these events first hand as opposed to a civil war buff or even a noted comics historian.

[1Cool]

RMAs story sparked a memory.  I started collection in 1985 or so since I remember trying to complete a Secret Wars set and having a hard time finding #4 for some reason.  I mostly bought X-Men’s for a couple years and then spent my entire allowance on a lower mid grade copy of ASM129 that was on the shop wall for $20 in probably 1987 or so.  Held on to that copy thru the years even though friends wanted to trade for it but I eventually sold it in 1996 or 1997 for $115 when I sold my entire collection after college.  For some reason I can still see that cover with the big corner crease even though I can’t remember how old I am most of the time.  Strange how certain books imprint themselves on you.

[Mercury Man]

7 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

In fact, ROM appeared 96 times in the same time period.

Interestingly, the ROM action figure was developed and produced, before it hit comic form.  So makes you wonder, why Marvel pushed him so much, given that the toy underwhelmed in terms of sales.  Maybe they thought to re-invigorate the toy side. 

[Lurker89]

Gotta laugh whan a "why is X Key"  so expensive thread starts.

But I do enjoy the conversation that ensues.

At the end of the day the market dictates. Total preference, among other factors, influence this....not ones individual preference.

EC Horror Comics are exhaustingly expensive because they are rare in decent grade, historic, and because some people have good taste. Other books are expensive because some people are lemmings with horrible taste who fall victim to marketing ploys.

I personally love Punisher and missed the boat on the book. I'm 30 with a growing family and in no position to buy $2K books. I'm a huge Swamp thing fan and missed the boat on HOS 92 as well, so I will have to find contentment in my SW1.  I love Moon Knight and am very glad I scooped up my 32 when I did. Those three of my favorite characters ..... If you don't like something ... Then it's not for you. It wouldn't persist if there was no market. 

Punisher FA has alot going for it, it is classic ASM, the introductory character appears on the cover, the cover art is exceptional and has become iconic. The character took time to find his popularity but has sustained it since attaining it.

You don't  **** on the market the market ***** on you.

 

 

 

[silverweb]

11 hours ago, Erndog said:

ASM129 is prob one of my fav books as Punisher is one of my fav characters.  I've actually been humming over the idea of adding a few more to the collection. 

 

Having said that, while the cover is awesome the cover to 135 is even better!

I agree with Erndog that the 129 and 135 covers are gorgeous! Definitely enhances the popularity of a first appearance!

[boomtown]

Not a big fan of the Amazing Spider-Man 129 club. Never became attached to the Punisher as a character, which is odd as I absolutely loved Man Wolf a few months earlier. I've always wondered if Romita and Kane had remained on the book another 4 or 5 issues if that would have pulled me in. The Kane/Romita cover is iconic, but the interiors were just "meh" at that point. I know Andru has his fans, but to me, the classic Spider-Man run ended at #124. I just don't look at the Andru run the same.

[Ride the Tiger]

What are the requirements for a "mega key"? Must be written down somewhere but I'm too lazy to do a search.

[Chaykin Stevens]

10 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

And there were plans to use him again in DD #167, but for some reason...probably because Miller wasn't happy with the story, or McKenzie's departure as writer was imminent...the story was shelved for a year, to be more fully developed in DD #181-184.

The Punisher story, Child's Play, was pulled from DD #167 because the Comics Code Authority objected to a sequence showing a child smoking a drug pipe.  The pages intended for #167 were later used with some modifications as #183. The final page intended for #167 was redrawn as two pages, and a further two pages were added at the end of the issue to tie things into the current continuity.

[RockMyAmadeus]

7 hours ago, Logan510 said:

The difference here is some of us actually experienced these events first hand as opposed to a civil war buff or even a noted comics historian.

We are in a position to know more about the Civil War today than anyone who actually experienced it, because we have the advantages of time and aggregation. There were no "Civil War histories" for people to read in 1864. The people who actually experienced it could only speak to their own experience, and some of the experience of the people in their sphere. We have the luxury of not merely knowing the aggregate experience of tens to hundreds of thousands of people, but many historians have done the heavy work of sifting through natural bias and misperception, to give us a more accurate picture of what happened. 

That's why history is so important.

Any single experience is necessarily suspect, mine, yours, anyone's. Memories fade, people misperceive events, emotions cloud perception. But the experience of 20 different people of the same event? Especially from people who recorded those experiences at the time the events occurred, rather than relying on fuzzy memories years or decades later...? Now you can start putting together a reliable picture of what actually happened...even if you didn't directly experience it yourself.

I wouldn't expect anybody to take my experience by itself, and I personally step into the picture in August of 1989. But we have a reliable record of what happened, experienced by tens and hundreds of people, so we don't need to rely on any one person's experience.

And that's a beautiful thing.

[RockMyAmadeus]

9 minutes ago, Chaykin Stevens said:

10 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

And there were plans to use him again in DD #167, but for some reason...probably because Miller wasn't happy with the story, or McKenzie's departure as writer was imminent...the story was shelved for a year, to be more fully developed in DD #181-184.

The Punisher story, Child's Play, was pulled from DD #167 because the Comics Code Authority objected to a sequence showing a child smoking a drug pipe.  The pages intended for #167 were later used with some modifications as #183. The final page intended for #167 was redrawn as two pages, and a further two pages were added at the end of the issue to tie things into the current continuity.

Excellent! Thanks for filling in the gaps! What I wonder, though, was #167 then intended to be Miller's debut as a writer? I would imagine so. Miller had wanted to leave the book, but O'Neil agreed to let him write the book as well, so #166 was McKenzie's last story. Things apparently happened fairly quickly, as #166 announced the Punisher appearance in the next issue, and #167 is sort of a "fill-in" issue, with Michelinie as writer. 

It would have been interesting if DD #167 had been Miller's debut as writer and the Punisher appearance. The issue itself is quite a bit scarcer than #182-184, and during the Punisher-mania of the early 90s, it could have become quite the valuable book...and would Elektra still have appeared in #168...? 

We'll never know.

[Chaykin Stevens]

27 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Excellent! Thanks for filling in the gaps! What I wonder, though, was #167 then intended to be Miller's debut as a writer? I would imagine so. Miller had wanted to leave the book, but O'Neil agreed to let him write the book as well, so #166 was McKenzie's last story. Things apparently happened fairly quickly, as #166 announced the Punisher appearance in the next issue, and #167 is sort of a "fill-in" issue, with Michelinie as writer. 

It would have been interesting if DD #167 had been Miller's debut as writer and the Punisher appearance. The issue itself is quite a bit scarcer than #182-184, and during the Punisher-mania of the early 90s, it could have become quite the valuable book...and would Elektra still have appeared in #168...? 

We'll never know.

McKenzie scripted part one of Child's Play intended for DD #167, and is credited as co-writer of DD #183.  Presumably Miller scripted the final four pages of #183.  GCD says McKenzie had uncredited writing input into DD #184. Elektra was originally intended to debut in #169 but was brought forward an issue to replace Child's Play part 2.  Miller's -script for the published DD #169 still included a reference to the angel dust murders.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Chaykin Stevens
fixed typo

[the blob]

13 hours ago, Erndog said:

ASM129 is prob one of my fav books as Punisher is one of my fav characters.  I've actually been humming over the idea of adding a few more to the collection. 

 

Having said that, while the cover is awesome the cover to 135 is even better!

I like 135 too. Still manageable for a mid grade copy. The key chasers who have been in the hobby 5 minutes ignore it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

7 minutes ago, Chaykin Stevens said:

McKenzie scripted part one of Child's Play intended for DD #167, and is credited as co-writer of DD #183.  Presumably Miller scripted the final four pages of #183.  GCD says McKenzie had uncredited writing input into DD #184. Elektra was originally intended to debut in #169 but was brought forward an issue to replace Child's Play part 2.  Miller's --script for the published DD #169 still included a reference to the angel dust murders.

Now you're making me pull out my copy to see.  And you're right; I'd wondered about that when I first read them, years ago. 

Here's the reference in question:

I remember thinking at the time "what angel dust murders...?" And since I read #183-184 months after that, I had forgotten about this scene in #169, and never made the connection that the later story was the one being referenced. Thanks for putting that puzzle piece in place for me! Took a few decades, but there it is!

I think DD #167-168 as originally intended would have made a very nice transition for the departing McKenzie and the incoming Miller. Imagining #169 as the debut of Elektra is interesting. 

This is apparently all explained in the Comics Journal Library: Frank Miller. I don't think I've read my copy. I'll have to dig it out. 

[bababooey]

25 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

This is apparently all explained in the Comics Journal Library: Frank Miller. I don't think I've read my copy. I'll have to dig it out. 

I recall reading about it in TCJ at the time....also relevant is the old Marvel Comics indexes also had an explanation (the index only covered up to issue 181 because 182 hadn't come out yet when the index was printed)