Why is Spiderman #129 now a mega key comic ? 1 1

[gaz973]

7 hours ago, porcupine48 said:

@gaz973 still a fine post!And hiya,seems its been a while mate! 

Hey Jimmers, hope life is good with you. 

I'm very rarely on the boards these days, just happened to be passing through and looked in at this thread. There only seems to be a few of the old faces around any more.

[WoWitHurts]

On 1/20/2020 at 12:25 PM, Logan510 said:

Oh OK, if you say so it has to be true

 

I paid $7 for my two copies in 1985. I am going to hunt the shop owner down and demand he return my $4/book back.  What a ripoff!

[Aweandlorder]

Theres a damn good reason why people pay a good dime for the first appearance of Punisher as opposed to, say, the first appearance of Wolverine 

[newshane]

On 1/17/2020 at 8:29 AM, Colin Nash said:

I have long looked at key comic issues. However, I still can't understand why the 1st appearance of The Punisher is held in such high esteem. A secondary character like many others in the history of Marvel and in all intents a purposes a glorified hitman. I just don't get how Spiderman #129 can carry such a high price tag. Sorry, but he does nothing for me. HOWEVER, having said this I'm always open to being persuaded by other points of view ?

I knew about The Punisher as a kid before I knew about The X-men. 

[newshane]

On 1/17/2020 at 10:52 AM, Gatsby77 said:

 

If you weren't there in 1992-93, it's hard to describe how popular Punisher was -- three monthly titles and guest-starring everywhere.

 

Big time truth, and this explains my perspective. Those were the years when I first got into the game.

I think his diminished popularity is due to his association with guns. After Columbine, no one wanted to throw weight behind a dark, gun-toting killer. That’s my theory, anyway.

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by newshane
Spelling error

[newshane]

Anyway, the OP is in a microscopic minority. ASM 129 is a very important key. Plus, the composition of the cover is quite remarkable. I’m not here to debate its worth, but its identity as a key is certain and nearly future proof. I’m actually shocked to learn there are people who disagree with that assessment. Compared to keys of similar importance, it is actually undervalued in today’s market, or rather, the other keys are overvalued!

Edited January 25, 2020 by newshane
I hate autocorrect

[Aweandlorder]

Who the hell needs a Mega key when you can have.....

 

 

A SUPER key!

[Colin Nash]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I hit a soft spot there, I think. I wiil look at The Punisher again and maybe view him in a different light. 

Some of you referred to Moon Knight and I think its a shame that this character has not been portrayed as a dark gothic character being tormented between doing good and evil. It would be a sinister, complex and intriguing story. Just my view.

I agree with your thoughts on the phrase 'Mega Key'. I has been mis-used on a few popular comic websites, hence my reference to it. It tends to be used for comics that have an astronomical price tag, but clearly its the historic relevance and/or rarity that make it so special and the price tag is just a consequence of that. 

[Dick Pontoon]

A bit late to jump in here, but why let that stop me?

I've been collecting since 1975. The Punisher has always been a popular character and #129 always in demand. Prices have always been more than surrounding issues, though of course not at the multiples we see today. Here's a scan over Overstreet #8 from 1978, the oldest one I could lay my hands on quickly. #129 and GS #4 are both singled out. Prices are listed the same than surrounding issues but that wasn't the case in the real world. Back then, just as today, the guide often lagged with hot or popular books.#129 was always harder to find and more expensive which is why I didn't own a copy for a number of years.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Dick Pontoon

[rabidwolf]

In the 90s hulk 181 and spiderman 129 were neck and neck in terms of value and demand. IMHO the 2 most important books from the 70s followed by GS X-men 1. Punisher was considered important enough to get a movie in the 90s well before Wolverine or the X-men. If anything 129 is currently a very reasonably priced key for what it is. 

[Prince Namor]

As keys go... it's a pretty great cover too...

[Prince Namor]

On 1/20/2020 at 4:42 AM, Unca Ben said:

I was a high school senior when ASM 129 hit the stands.  I didn't really like the Punisher too much but I did like the stories he appeared in.  I just wasn't a fan of the anti-hero character. 
However, iirc, the fan response in subsequent issues was pretty positive, if not a little controversial (I'm too lazy to dig out the issues and check the lettercolls so I'm goin' by memory).
Maybe management didn't believe the Punisher was ready to carry his own series, but he did start to appear on a  regular basis over the next few years.  Back then, if you saw a character appear a couple times a year he became a regular character.  And the lettercolls after these appearances reflected the popularity of the character.

Those were the days when Marvel was upping its output - 30 to 40 books a month to over 50 (including their magazine line - more than I could afford at the time ) but they diversified a lot.  Mostly super-heroes and horror with a smattering of westerns, sci-fi and a little war, romance and kung fu.  Even the major guys like Spidey, the Thing, and Conan only had 2 regular series devoted to them (and in the case of Spidey and the Thing their second books were team-up books and Conan's second book was in the magazine line) and it seemed just as likely that Marvel would introduce a new character to start a series (like Shang-Chi, Iron Fist and Killraven and Deathlok) where guest stars like the Black Panther and Hercules had stayed guest stars (or been in the Avengers) for a while before they got their own series.  Even the increasingly popular horror characters like Morbius took a couple of years after they were introduced before they would get their own series - except for Man-Wolf.  And all those guys above were popular at the time.  It was a big deal to get a regular series back then.

But yeah, it did take an inordinate amount of time for him to get his own series.  But he was a popular guest star.  

That's my take, anyways. 

I think you're 100% right. The market was different, collecting was different... the direct market didn't exist as we know it and... really, until Jim Shooter realized how much he could gouge and over saturate the direct market, most of Marvel's decisions were probably made by creative people and that focus was currently on Horror and Sci-Fi at the time.

As a ten year old who bought this book brand new, I thought the character was cool as hell and the added bonus of "Who is this Jackel guy?" made that book an instant hit. And I loved #134, with that ending and #135... and GS ASM #4... ah, I miss that era so much...

But I never even thought to myself, 'I hope the Punisher gets his own series!' It didn't really work that way back then. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Chuck Gower

[Prince Namor]

On 1/20/2020 at 2:15 PM, the blob said:

Marvel not understanding they had a character worth pushing doesn't mean kids and angry teens didn't like the character. Marvel pushed all sorts of terrible characters and titles that failed. Wolverine had a very popular mini and was obviously very popular and how many years did it take before he got a title? I think the vigilante nature of the character(s) scared marvel off.. They probably didn't want parents groups or the CCA dumping on them (and we were in Reagan's America..), which is odd because vigilante movies were popular, but rated R, etc... But they probably wanted to be safe with all ages comics. Anyway, my fondness for the character and my brother's and friends' is anecdotal, of course. We were all victims of street crime and wished someone was out there murdering criminals (coincidentally, the Deatbwish apartment was only a few blocks from where I grew up). Maybe kids in Kansas couldn't identify.

I agree, though I have no idea if 'angry teens' liked it. A character can be popular for years without Marvel or whoever doing a series about it or even necessarily repeating a character over and over. The Green Goblin was extremely popular, it didn't mean he was going to get his own comic book. 

I liked the Punisher and always thought of ASM 129 as a cool book - and yes, I saw it separated and priced slightly higher than the books around it BEFORE the Punisher got his mini-series. That book was nostalgic to a lot of people even in the mid to late 80's, myself included, and dealers knew that or were nostalgic about it themselves... it kicked off a memorable (and in many ways infamous) run in the ASM that still has repercussions in the series today. 

Despite all of this, I was SHOCKED when the character got a mini-series. To be quite honest I wasn't interested in it. Didn't buy it when it came out. I thought he made a great reappearing minor character in Spider-man, but... he's one dimensional, isn't he? My friends who loved it and read it and collected it through the years would tell me, "No, he has a guy who makes his weapons (or something) and he has a secret hide-out and..." It all sounded goofy to me. 

So yeah, I LIKED the character. I just didn't think he could ever carry his own book (much less THREE titles eventually). Probably the same way Marvel thought for many years. But as Marvel grew and continued to look for other characters to glut the market with, it was just a matter of time for someone to eventually say, "What about the Punisher?"

[vaillant]

On 1/17/2020 at 3:29 PM, Colin Nash said:

I have long looked at key comic issues. However, I still can't understand why the 1st appearance of The Punisher is held in such high esteem. A secondary character like many others in the history of Marvel and in all intents a purposes a glorified hitman. I just don't get how Spiderman #129 can carry such a high price tag. Sorry, but he does nothing for me. HOWEVER, having said this I'm always open to being persuaded by other points of view ?

In my opinion, it is a combination of factors. The own series and the movies clearly played a part, but the character was interesting to begin with.
You are also debasing the character: especially before Marvel gave it his own series, he was never meant as “a glorified hitman”, rather as a troubled individual, a sort of "anti-hero" which was in line with the sentiment of the time in which he came into being, as much as characters like the Foolkiller, the Man-Thing or Paladin. Or the many darker characters like Wolf-Man, Morbius et al., which were not – strictly speaking – "anti-heroes" but rather troubled characters.
I think that even after he received his own series, at least by the more talented writers, the character has been always portrayed as problematic, not as a glorified "deranged vigilante": I recall a story arc from the first issues of The Punishe War Journal, “Psychoville”, which IIRC highlighted such complexity.

[vaillant]

I.e. the Punisher has never had the (in my opinion problematic) exaggerate hype confered to characters like Carnage.
Marvel built a bit on this, and of course it’s legitimate to criticize this. But not with the Punisher or, for example, Morbius. They have always been more interesting characters, and often well written and developed.
Of course, a good writer can write good Carnage stories too, but I’d say we haven’t had many good writers for years.

[Prince Namor]

20 hours ago, Pontoon said:

A bit late to jump in here, but why let that stop me?

I've been collecting since 1975. The Punisher has always been a popular character and #129 always in demand. Prices have always been more than surrounding issues, though of course not at the multiples we see today. Here's a scan over Overstreet #8 from 1978, the oldest one I could lay my hands on quickly. #129 and GS #4 are both singled out. Prices are listed the same than surrounding issues but that wasn't the case in the real world. Back then, just as today, the guide often lagged with hot or popular books.#129 was always harder to find and more expensive which is why I didn't own a copy for a number of years.

 

 

Some interesting thoughts on the differences between what OSPG says and what dealers sold:

We're all aware that OSPG, even back then, had it's limitations and made its mistakes (some of which STILL haven't been corrected), but I think it's important to understand the mindset of dealers from the pre-speculation era and how they sold books in relation to the OSPG.

The entirety of the direct market (and that's a pretty all-emcompassing word but I'm going all out here), was made up of FANS of the hobby. I worked for my local comic book shop in 1987-1991 and was friends with the owner and still friends with him to this day.

He was a collector himself, and this of course, played a part in how he priced books. I remember him getting in a run of Byrne X-Men, before they got really hot and marking them up to where he felt comfortable selling them (I think they were like $7-10 in that range), and I remember thinking, "That's kinda high..."

I wasn't a fan of the X-Men really, though he certainly recommended stuff and advanced my knowledge of what was good over the years and I bought plenty from him in those days. And when I bought old Spidey's from him, he knew what issues to break out and charge just a bit more for... thanks to the OSPG. THIS period is the genesis of the key issue surge. 

Yes, OSPG broke it out as who appeared in what, but someone has to sell it to make it a thing, and the dealers did and slowly they turned those keys into seemingly the ONLY thing people want today.

So a book like ASM #129 may not have SHOWN it was trending upward in those OSPG's, but the smart dealers were using that information to already sell it for more before OSPG caught on and started to break the price out as well. 

In a market place, no matter how much someone 'writes stuff down', there will always be someone beforehand who is a SALESMAN and understands the desire of the buyer -  and how to use that desire to be able to make more money from the buyer. This will always precede the recording of it. 

It has to be a thing before it can be 'written down'. And sometimes OSPG just didn't keep up. 

[bababooey]

The Human Fly first appearance notation in ASM Ann 10 is likely proof of Overstreet not keeping up since that "at that time" one and done character wasn't going to reappear in ASM for another year BUT the real life Human Fly (different character) had gotten his own short-lived title when this Overstreet came out. 

[F For Fake]

I'm not much of a Punisher fan, but I do love that ASM 129 cover. Gotta love yellow covers! 

As for the character, there can be no overstating just how popular and omnipresent he was in the mid/late 80's and early 90's. And he has endured. Two feature films, two seasons of television, it all adds up to enduring cultural presence.

But the big win is the logo/icon. It's bigger than the character, and will outlive the comics by a far margin, I'd say. That thing is slapped on shirts, hats, cars, etc I see if more often than I see the Superman logo these days. Sign o' the times? Perhaps.

[comiconxion]

On 1/18/2020 at 6:04 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

I asked Zeck about that. He told me that it was originally going to be a four issue mini-series...which is why issue #1 says "#1 in a four-issue limited series"....but before #1 came out, they'd decided to expand it to 5 (and he had only committed to 4, which is why #5 is penciled by Vosburg.) So for #2 they changed it. Then, #3 came out...and the trade dress editor forgot it was now five issues, and put "#3 in a four-issue limited series"...and no one noticed! So, #4 also said four issues, and then #5 was finally corrected...because it would have looked dumb to say "#5 in a four-issue limited series" (Transformers #80 notwithstanding...  )

 

For the record, I wanted to correct this as I've talked to Mike Zeck numerous times about this.  1) The Punisher Limited Series was always intended to be 5 issues; 2) Because there hadn't been a 5 issue Limited Series until that time, the people in production had re-used the "Four Issue Limited Series" logo on the first issue; 3) Mike pointed out the error after the 1st issue which is why it was corrected with issue #2; 4) But, after issue #2, they went back to making the same mistake and Mike didn't feel like correcting it again so he let it lie until they figured it out with issue #5; 5) Vosburg was brought in because Carl Potts was worried that Mike was too slow and wouldn't finish on time.  But, when Zeck was removed from the book, Steven Grant also walked which is why the creative team on the last issue is different.  To Vosburg's credit, he told me they only gave him a week to draw the issue and he had no idea at the time how impactful that Limited Series was going to be.  So, for those that were disappointed in the last issue, keep that in mind - Vosburg did his best!

[RockMyAmadeus]

57 minutes ago, comiconxion said:

For the record, I wanted to correct this as I've talked to Mike Zeck numerous times about this.  1) The Punisher Limited Series was always intended to be 5 issues; 2) Because there hadn't been a 5 issue Limited Series until that time, the people in production had re-used the "Four Issue Limited Series" logo on the first issue; 3) Mike pointed out the error after the 1st issue which is why it was corrected with issue #2; 4) But, after issue #2, they went back to making the same mistake and Mike didn't feel like correcting it again so he let it lie until they figured it out with issue #5; 5) Vosburg was brought in because Carl Potts was worried that Mike was too slow and wouldn't finish on time.  But, when Zeck was removed from the book, Steven Grant also walked which is why the creative team on the last issue is different.  To Vosburg's credit, he told me they only gave him a week to draw the issue and he had no idea at the time how impactful that Limited Series was going to be.  So, for those that were disappointed in the last issue, keep that in mind - Vosburg did his best!

I must have misunderstood Mike when he explained it to me. Thanks for the correction!