THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023) 9 9

[Gatsby77]

Just now, Bosco685 said:

TODAY: Big box office results and Rotten Tomatoes scores are a clear sign of satisfaction and film quality. Don't you get that?

YESTERDAY: Hey, even Transformers made a bunch of money. And who would rely on Rotten Tomatoes for a benchmark nowadays?

Such steady counterclaim debate techniques. It must be consistent with that thought process.

Nah.

I stated initially that the Transformers movies made a bunch of money, but are trash.

And Captain Marvel made a bunch of money, but is great.

Both are true.

[Bosco685]

Just now, Gatsby77 said:

Nah.

I stated initially that the Transformers movies made a bunch of money, but are trash.

And Captain Marvel made a bunch of money, but is great.

Both are true.

Umhhhh...okay. So Infinity War and Endgame had no strong influence on the box office results? Right. Some of the biggest films in history, and a franchise link not commonly seen before.

[Gatsby77]

15 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

'My claims are more factual than your claims - because I said so!'

Thanks, man! I try...

Best part is I actually took 5 minutes to re-watch the trailer to Fate of the Furious to evaluate if it really belonged on the trash list.

I saw it at the $2 theater, and again later in passing while it played at my favorite Japanese bar.

It *almost* gets a pass for Charlize Theron and the plane fight with his son, but nope - the submarine finale just kills it.

Still trash.

They're now to the point where they're going to *have* to go to space soon because that's the only ridiculous setting left.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Gatsby77

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, Gatsby77 said:

Thanks, man! I try...

Best part is I actually took 5 minutes to re-watch the trailer to Fate of the Furious to evaluate if it really belonged on the trash list.

I saw it at the $2 theater, and again later in passing while it played at my favorite Japanese bar.

It *almost* gets a pass for Charlize Theron and the plane fight with his son, but nope - the submarine finale just kills it.

Still trash.

They're now to the point where they're going to *have* to go to space soon because that's the only ridiculous setting left.

See, where you attempt to accuse someone of Gish Gallop (overwhelming someone with irrelevant arguments). Yet what you apply is called 'Fallacy Of Incomplete Evidence' (cherry picking). When certain portions of data support a debate opinion, you apply just that piece and discredit other data sources. It's also called the fallacy of selective attention.

So if someone presents the Rotten Tomatoes Audience Score, IMDb reviewer scores or other sources - you discredit that and use the Rotten Tomatoes Critic Score. Even though who is controlling those results have been talked to excessively in news sources as being influenced by blocking critics from participating in future early screenings. Which Disney has applied before, and got caught at when it took it too far to influence a news site from reporting on its labor practices.

The controversy over Disney blacklisting the LA Times, explained

But that's just confirmed news and details. Better to cherry pick data when it supports your beliefs - but then accuse someone of misrepresentation when they appear to reference the same sources. I guess this must be that 'analytical credibility' thing some speak of.

[theCapraAegagrus]

25 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Solid list, but you're wrong about:

• Furious 7
• The Last Jedi
• Captain Marvel

I disagree.

The end of Furious 7 was a decent tribute. I will give you that.

[@therealsilvermane]

2 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

Umhhhh...okay. So Infinity War and Endgame had no strong influence on the box office results? Right. Some of the biggest films in history, and a franchise link not commonly seen before.

Look, I understand that a lot of Captain Marvel's strong showing at the box office was because it tied into the final chapters of the Infinity Saga .I understand that mainstream general audiences who've never heard of the character before flocked to Captain Marvel because they're fans of the entire MCU franchise. And you could say that about literally every MCU movie except the Ant-Man sub-franchise. That's the way it works. Kevin Feige and the Marvel Studios producers have developed a movie label that people flock to regardless of what character it is, except Ant-Man. To say that Captain Marvel was an overwhelming box office success is to also say that the MCU as a whole is an overwhelming box office success. I'm fine with that.

Now, was Captain Marvel the cultural phenomenon that Black Panther was? Content-wise, I'd say no. Wonder Woman beat CM to the title of first major successful solo female super-hero movie. Captain Marvel seems to have made a bigger mark culturally along political lines, being as divisive a movie as I've ever seen. When you've got political pundits and agitators weighing in on a comic book movie before it's even released, I suppose you've struck a nerve. I like to think that Carol Danvers is fulfilling her legacy. When Roy Thomas introduced her in 1969, she was a strong willed woman with an important military position in a man's world. When she was introduced in 1977 as Ms. Marvel, she was meant to be Marvel Comics' answer to the 70's Women's Lib movement. And when Chris Claremont gave Carol a backbone in Avengers Annual 10 when she calls out her fellow Avengers (and David Michelinie) for allowing her to be raped by an interdimensional being, she pre-dated the #MeToo Movement by several decades.

But I don't think the political divisiveness of Captain Marvel takes away from the fact that her movie was a box office smash and is an equal testament to the mammoth movie machine that Marvel Studios is. And it doesn't take away from the fact that she's created a worldwide fan base. Culturally, is Carol Danvers at Wonder Woman level yet? No. But let's see what happens when she eventually "takes the lead and will be at the forefront of the entire MCU."

[theCapraAegagrus]

Yes, let's indoctrinate the young fan-base of the MCU. That'll keep the $$$$$ rolling in!

That is exactly why Wonder Woman is so much better than CM.

[@therealsilvermane]

4 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Yes, let's indoctrinate the young fan-base of the MCU. That'll keep the $$$$$ rolling in!

That is exactly why Wonder Woman is so much better than CM.

Yes, let's indoctrinate our youth to the idea that a woman doesn't have to be an object of sexual desire or a second class citizen to be talked down to, but can be anyone she wants to be. And doesn't need anybody's approval. Such a horrible message.

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Yes, let's indoctrinate our youth to the idea that a woman doesn't have to be an object of sexual desire or a second class citizen to be talked down to, but can be anyone she wants to be. And doesn't need anybody's approval. Such a horrible message.

Yes, let's indoctrinate our youth that all men do is objectify women, or treat them like 2nd class citizens, or talk down to them, or that they're oppressed.

Lies breed divisiveness.

[Bosco685]

2 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Look, I understand that a lot of Captain Marvel's strong showing at the box office was because it tied into the final chapters of the Infinity Saga .I understand that mainstream general audiences who've never heard of the character before flocked to Captain Marvel because they're fans of the entire MCU franchise. And you could say that about literally every MCU movie except the Ant-Man sub-franchise. That's the way it works. Kevin Feige and the Marvel Studios producers have developed a movie label that people flock to regardless of what character it is, except Ant-Man. To say that Captain Marvel was an overwhelming box office success is to also say that the MCU as a whole is an overwhelming box office success. I'm fine with that.

Now, was Captain Marvel the cultural phenomenon that Black Panther was? Content-wise, I'd say no. Wonder Woman beat CM to the title of first major successful solo female super-hero movie. Captain Marvel seems to have made a bigger mark culturally along political lines, being as divisive a movie as I've ever seen. When you've got political pundits and agitators weighing in on a comic book movie before it's even released, I suppose you've struck a nerve. I like to think that Carol Danvers is fulfilling her legacy. When Roy Thomas introduced her in 1969, she was a strong willed woman with an important military position in a man's world. When she was introduced in 1977 as Ms. Marvel, she was meant to be Marvel Comics' answer to the 70's Women's Lib movement. And when Chris Claremont gave Carol a backbone in Avengers Annual 10 when she calls out her fellow Avengers (and David Michelinie) for allowing her to be raped by an interdimensional being, she pre-dated the #MeToo Movement by several decades.

But I don't think the political divisiveness of Captain Marvel takes away from the fact that her movie was a box office smash and is an equal testament to the mammoth movie machine that Marvel Studios is. And it doesn't take away from the fact that she's created a worldwide fan base. Culturally, is Carol Danvers at Wonder Woman level yet? No. But let's see what happens when she eventually "takes the lead and will be at the forefront of the entire MCU."

I'm impressed with the level of thought and attempt to be more reasonable went into this post. Congratulations! 

Captain Marvel as a film definitely connected with a certain portion of the movie-going audience. No question there. And it definitely benefited massively from the Infinity War-Endgame connection, along with years of buildup to all the related events. No question there on all those influences.

Was it a politically divisive film? Not at all. If anything, the story played safe to the common MCU themes and approach. Even if it was the first solo female-led film. Yet for years there have been strong female characters throughout these productions. To include:

• Pepper Potts (Gwyneth Paltrow)
• Peggy Carter (Hayley Atwell)
• Lady Sif (Jaimie Alexander)
• Black Widow (Scarlett Johansson)
• Scarlet Witch (Elizabeth Olsen)

To assume this was the final production to make female MCU characters stand out misses all these fantastic contributions over the years that also stood toe-to-toe with their male actors. These actresses clearly conveyed independence and strength.

There is just a portion of the audience that saw this film that even outside of those that took offense to Brie Larson's statements did not appreciate Captain Marvel like those that did. It's okay. The world won't end. And the sequel may address their concerns.

[theCapraAegagrus]

5 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

I'm impressed with the level of thought and attempt to be more reasonable went into this post. Congratulations! 

Captain Marvel as a film definitely connected with a certain portion of the movie-going audience. No question there. And it definitely benefited massively from the Infinity War-Endgame connection, along with years of buildup to all the related events. No question there on all those influences.

Was it a politically divisive film? Not at all. If anything, the story played safe to the common MCU themes and approach. Even if it was the first solo female-led film. Yet for years there have been strong female characters throughout these productions. To include:

• Pepper Potts (Gwyneth Paltrow)
• Peggy Carter (Hayley Atwell)
• Lady Sif (Jaimie Alexander)
• Black Widow (Scarlett Johansson)
• Scarlet Witch (Elizabeth Olsen)

To assume this was the final production to make female MCU characters stand out misses all these fantastic contributions over the years that also stood toe-to-toe with their male actors. These actresses clearly conveyed independence and strength.

There is just a portion of the audience that saw this film that even outside of those that took offense to Brie Larson's statements did not appreciate Captain Marvel like those that did. It's okay. The world won't end. And the sequel may address their concerns.

Oh, come on. Sif? She didn't do jack-s^&*.

[Broke as a Joke]

My 9 year old daughter loved the Wonder Woman movie and still asks me to pop in the blu ray once a month.  She didn't even finish watching Captain Marvel and could care less.  Don't know why exactly, but I'm sure the lack of personality, charisma combined with wooden emotion probably had something to do with it.

[Bosco685]

22 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Oh, come on. Sif? She didn't do jack-s^&*.

Lady Sif took not guff from Thor. None! 

 

[@therealsilvermane]

17 minutes ago, Broke as a Joke said:

My 9 year old daughter loved the Wonder Woman movie and still asks me to pop in the blu ray once a month.  She didn't even finish watching Captain Marvel and could care less.  Don't know why exactly, but I'm sure the lack of personality, charisma combined with wooden emotion probably had something to do with it.

[theCapraAegagrus]

12 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Lady Sif took not guff from Thor. None! 

 

All of Sif and The Warriors Three were basically pointless in the Thor trilogy. They should've been more important in TDW, and given memorable deaths in Ragnarok. Sad.

[Bosco685]

17 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

All of Sif and The Warriors Three were basically pointless in the Thor trilogy. They should've been more important in TDW, and given memorable deaths in Ragnarok. Sad.

It really is sad how the entire Sif and the Warriors Three turned out. Mainly the men, and how they were handled in Ragnarok.

Lady Sif could pop up in the Loki Disney+ show and hopefully lead to something long-term.

[@therealsilvermane]

2 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

• Pepper Potts (Gwyneth Paltrow)
• Peggy Carter (Hayley Atwell)
• Lady Sif (Jaimie Alexander)
• Black Widow (Scarlett Johansson)
• Scarlet Witch (Elizabeth Olsen)

To assume this was the final production to make female MCU characters stand out misses all these fantastic contributions over the years that also stood toe-to-toe with their male actors. These actresses clearly conveyed independence and strength.

I think what was missing from the contributions of this list of fine female MCU figures, besides Wanda Maximoff and besides starring in a solo film, is that Carol Danvers was allowed to be a mess before figuring herself out at the end of the movie. This has been the trademark lead character development formula for solo MCU films, and even team films to a degree. Yes, the female characters you listed are all strong and capable, but they don't get to have fun the way the male MCU characters were able to, and that also includes Hope Van Dyne. In each MCU film, those female characters (with the exception of Wanda) act more like nannies to the playful boyish male heroes of Tony Stark or Thor or even the awkward Steve Rogers. In Captain Marvel, we see a female character finally get to play that messed up yet playful girlish hero role denied female MCU characters up to this point. Again, that comes with being a lead solo character in the MCU.

As a side note, even in Guardians of the Galaxy which was a comedy, all the male characters got to have fun, and again we had the female character, Gamora, being the one who doesn't get to have fun and play the "nanny" role. And I'd say the character who  got real character development was actually Rocket. He started as an agry selfish loner (with a tree sidekick) to accepting the other Guardians as friends and family at the end. I don't think Gamora got a real meaty part to play until Infinity War.

[Larryw7]

On 7/21/2020 at 7:40 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Try watching the movie, dude. She does more than "smirk." And last I checked, Brie Larson is the only lead actor in the MCU to have won an Oscar for Best Acting.

Yes, I get it. Captain Marvel wasn't a big tearjerker and that's what you haters were clamoring for but I guess Kevin Feige in all his smartness knew not to release a heavy drama film with tears and gnashing of teeth and lots of dying a month before Endgame.

And Halle Berry won an Oscar the same year she made Catwoman.

[Larryw7]

On 7/22/2020 at 5:51 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

I likened Brie Larson's interpretation of Carol Danvers in Captain Marvel 

I never would have guessed!

[@therealsilvermane]

5 minutes ago, Larryw7 said:

And Halle Berry won an Oscar the same year she made Catwoman.

I didn't see Catwoman, but did the movie suck because of Halle Berry or the producers and filmmakers? Whether Halle was right for the role or not, I'm thinking the filmmakers were to blame for the movie.