THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023) 9 9

[@therealsilvermane]

10 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

Was it a politically divisive film? Not at all. If anything, the story played safe to the common MCU themes and approach. Even if it was the first solo female-led film. Yet for years there have been strong female characters throughout these productions. To include:

• Pepper Potts (Gwyneth Paltrow)
• Peggy Carter (Hayley Atwell)
• Lady Sif (Jaimie Alexander)
• Black Widow (Scarlett Johansson)
• Scarlet Witch (Elizabeth Olsen)

To assume this was the final production to make female MCU characters stand out misses all these fantastic contributions over the years that also stood toe-to-toe with their male actors. These actresses clearly conveyed independence and strength.

 

7 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I think what was missing from the contributions of this list of fine female MCU figures, besides Wanda Maximoff and besides starring in a solo film, is that Carol Danvers was allowed to be a mess before figuring herself out at the end of the movie. This has been the trademark lead character development formula for solo MCU films, and even team films to a degree. Yes, the female characters you listed are all strong and capable, but they don't get to have fun the way the male MCU characters were able to, and that also includes Hope Van Dyne. In each MCU film, those female characters (with the exception of Wanda) act more like nannies to the playful boyish male heroes of Tony Stark or Thor or even the awkward Steve Rogers. In Captain Marvel, we see a female character finally get to play that messed up yet playful girlish hero role denied female MCU characters up to this point. Again, that comes with being a lead solo character in the MCU.

As a side note, even in Guardians of the Galaxy which was a comedy, all the male characters got to have fun, and again we had the female character, Gamora, being the one who doesn't get to have fun and play the "nanny" role. And I'd say the character who  got real character development was actually Rocket. He started as an agry selfish loner (with a tree sidekick) to accepting the other Guardians as friends and family at the end. I don't think Gamora got a real meaty part to play until Infinity War.

As if on cue, Huffington Post today posted an article about this very same issue, of women in films stereo-typed as nagging while the men get to have all the fun. Apparently it's a panel at SD Comic Con.

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/female-stereotypes-comic-con-203914956.html

Edited July 25, 2020 by @therealsilvermane

[Bosco685]

8 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

 

As if on cue, Huffington Post today posted an article about this very same issue, of women in films stereo-typed as nagging while the men get to have all the fun. Apparently it's a panel at SD Comic Con.

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/female-stereotypes-comic-con-203914956.html

When you read the full context of the panel...

Quote

All of the women on the panel agreed that one of the “biggest red flags” involves killing off a female character to further the development of a male protagonist. This device is often called “fridging,” named after a 1994 “Green Lantern” comic where the hero enters a house to find his girlfriend chopped up and stuffed into a refrigerator.

Oh yeah. I remember when they killed off Captain Marvel to give Nick Fury more attention in the Captain Marvel film. That was horrible!

Or maybe you were just fishing to justify your opinion those that didn't like Brie Larson's performance in THIS ROLE (not all roles) had issues with a female lead. Like when a 9-year old girl enjoys watching Wonder Woman more than rewatching Captain Marvel. Because, naturally, she has issues with women in leading roles. She must be a white male in disguise.

[Bosco685]

And since @@therealsilvermane attempted to spot-quote a portion of the panel. Let's visit the entire panel, which was HOW TO BUILD A BETTER HEROINE.

At the beginning of the panel, they are asked to identify the best female characters they feel fits the expectation of a strong and well-told heroine. The total list noted by the panel:

• All of the women of Black Panther
• Imperator Furiosa from Mad Max: Fury Road due to the depth of character
• Birds of Prey because everyone in there is strong, flawed, violent and on a mission (especially Huntress) rather than soft and meek
• Mako Mori from Pacific Rim: Uprising
• Peggy Carter from Agent Carter show
• Ahsoka Tano from Star Wars: The Clone Wars
• Fleabag from Fleabag due to her relationship with a higher power
• Bertie from Tuka and Bertie
• Rocket from the Icon comic book series
• Elida from Vagrant Queen SYFY series
• Zari from Legends of Tomorrow CW show
• Issa from Insecure HBO show
• Bulma from Dragon Ball Z show
• Michael Burnham from Star Trek Discovery CBS show
• Lily Chan from Devs mini series
• The female leads from Girls Trip movie
• Moana as a dark skinned Disney princess in Moana movie
• Sailor Jupiter from Sailor Moon manga series

What character is missing from this list as a strong, iconic female lead serving as a role model in an MCU or Marvel production? Hmmm.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Bosco685

[ashsaytr]

i liked Ant-Man! 

[akaSteveRogers]

8 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

Oh yeah. I remember when they killed off Captain Marvel to give Nick Fury more attention in the Captain Marvel film. That was horrible!

 

If anything, Fury was a wuss in CM.  Unlike any other version of Fury in any of the other MCU movies.  I guess you can attribute this to him being a "rookie" Fury.

[Comicopolis]

Gish Gallop is my new favourite term.

I'll think of this thread every time I hear it.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 7/25/2020 at 8:26 AM, Bosco685 said:

And since @@therealsilvermane attempted to spot-quote a portion of the panel. Let's visit the entire panel, which was HOW TO BUILD A BETTER HEROINE.

At the beginning of the panel, they are asked to identify the best female characters they feel fits the expectation of a strong and well-told heroine. The total list noted by the panel:

• All of the women of Black Panther
• Imperator Furiosa from Mad Max: Fury Road due to the depth of character
• Birds of Prey because everyone in there is strong, flawed, violent and on a mission (especially Huntress) rather than soft and meek
• Mako Mori from Pacific Rim: Uprising
• Peggy Carter from Agent Carter show
• Ahsoka Tano from Star Wars: The Clone Wars
• Fleabag from Fleabag due to her relationship with a higher power
• Bertie from Tuka and Bertie
• Rocket from the Icon comic book series
• Elida from Vagrant Queen SYFY series
• Zari from Legends of Tomorrow CW show
• Issa from Insecure HBO show
• Bulma from Dragon Ball Z show
• Michael Burnham from Star Trek Discovery CBS show
• Lily Chan from Devs mini series
• The female leads from Girls Trip movie
• Moana as a dark skinned Disney princess in Moana movie
• Sailor Jupiter from Sailor Moon manga series

What character is missing from this list as a strong, iconic female lead serving as a role model in an MCU or Marvel production? Hmmm.

You mean how the panel of women comics and TV writers left out the two obvious feature films that starred the first successful solo female superheroes? I totally respect that this panel left out the low hanging fruit of Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman and instead picked out some less obvious and maybe more obscure examples besides the two globally dominating heroines that everybody's heard of and seen (besides Black Panther, which featured a man).

Also, I never watched the panel. I didn't even know there was a panel until I read the Huffington Post article. That's what I was referencing. The article, which did spot-quote the article which is what journalistic articles do. My point was that one of the common tropes discussed in the panel and pointed out by article, that of the nagging wet blanket female character who counterbalances the fun loving male lead, was the same point I was making in what made Captain Marvel different from her MCU feature film predecessors (not counting the TV Peggy Carter). The panel also had used the same example I made about Gamora being that wet blanket character of the Guardians, so I was simply bragging about the fact that this distinquished panel of lady writers and myself were on the same page without any pre-planning.

On 7/25/2020 at 7:49 AM, Bosco685 said:

When you read the full context of the panel...

Quote

All of the women on the panel agreed that one of the “biggest red flags” involves killing off a female character to further the development of a male protagonist. This device is often called “fridging,” named after a 1994 “Green Lantern” comic where the hero enters a house to find his girlfriend chopped up and stuffed into a refrigerator.

Oh yeah. I remember when they killed off Captain Marvel to give Nick Fury more attention in the Captain Marvel film. That was horrible!

"Fridging" couldn't apply to Captain Marvel, because the female character is the lead character. Nick Fury was a supporting character in the movie. I don't believe MCU films even use that plot device.

I mean, you get that the SDCC panel was just pointing out several tropes that appear in many super-hero, comic, and fantasy films and TV shows in general, and that the tropes don't have to all appear in one movie, and that I also wasn't implying that, right? Again, my point is that the Marvel Studios has definitely overused the "nagging" wet blanket female character in the feature films (with a few exceptions, like Jane Foster in Thor 1 and Scarlet Witch) and that Captain Marvel was a departure from that in that, this time, a female got to be the featured lead and thus, "get to have the fun" reserved for the male heroes.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 7/25/2020 at 8:26 AM, Bosco685 said:

 

 

Now I'm wondering if the trope from this panel, the "depower the super-heroine so the female character can find her softer side" trope (or something like that)  is what Chris Claremont was sort of guilty of when he had Rogue take Carol Danvers’ powers away decades ago? Although he gave Carol a powerful voice in Avengers Annual #10 when she calls out the Avengers in her pre-MeToo Movement speech, perhaps Claremont unfortunately negated that by taking her super-powers away?

Edited July 26, 2020 by @therealsilvermane

[Bosco685]

4 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

You mean how the panel of women comics and TV writers left out the two obvious feature films that starred the first successful solo female superheroes? I totally respect that this panel left out the low hanging fruit of Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman and instead picked out some less obvious and maybe more obscure examples besides the two globally dominating heroines that everybody's heard of and seen (besides Black Panther, which featured a man).

Also, I never watched the panel. I didn't even know there was a panel until I read the Huffington Post article. That's what I was referencing. The article, which did spot-quote the article which is what journalistic articles do. My point was that one of the common tropes discussed in the panel and pointed out by article, that of the nagging wet blanket female character who counterbalances the fun loving male lead, was the same point I was making in what made Captain Marvel different from her MCU feature film predecessors (not counting the TV Peggy Carter). The panel also had used the same example I made about Gamora being that wet blanket character of the Guardians, so I was simply bragging about the fact that this distinquished panel of lady writers and myself were on the same page without any pre-planning.

Meanwhile, proclaiming the reason why many were not as big a fan of Captain Marvel was for political or even gender-based bias versus ignoring the story or lead character portrayal didn't work for them is not something these panelist would celebrate. The panel was about stories and characters that honor strong female heroines.

4 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

"Fridging" couldn't apply to Captain Marvel, because the female character is the lead character. Nick Fury was a supporting character in the movie. I don't believe MCU films even use that plot device.

I mean, you get that the SDCC panel was just pointing out several tropes that appear in many super-hero, comic, and fantasy films and TV shows in general, and that the tropes don't have to all appear in one movie, and that I also wasn't implying that, right? Again, my point is that the Marvel Studios has definitely overused the "nagging" wet blanket female character in the feature films (with a few exceptions, like Jane Foster in Thor 1 and Scarlet Witch) and that Captain Marvel was a departure from that in that, this time, a female got to be the featured lead and thus, "get to have the fun" reserved for the male heroes.

Uh-huh. Sure thing.

[Bosco685]

5 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Now I'm wondering if the trope from this panel, the "depower the super-heroine so the female character can find her softer side" trope (or something like that)  is what Chris Claremont was sort of guilty of when he had Rogue take her powers away decades ago? Although he gave Carol a powerful voice in Avengers Annual #10 when she calls out the Avengers in her pre-MeToo Movement speech, perhaps Claremont unfortunately negated that by taking her super-powers away?

Avengers Annual #10 was the big reality check that made these stories relatable to real life where people put their blinders on to certain situations. What a writer like Chris Claremont tried to do often in conveying team books where individual social and mental challenges were applied to make these stories stand out. And what a shocker to make them more anti-heroes that characters that never erred or had value challenges. Part of what made many of these comics (DC and Marvel) so great.

[@therealsilvermane]

20 hours ago, akaSteveRogers said:

If anything, Fury was a wuss in CM.  Unlike any other version of Fury in any of the other MCU movies.  I guess you can attribute this to him being a "rookie" Fury.

Especially that part in Captain Marvel where Fury purposely swerves his car into the bus so the Skrull in the passenger seat gets taken out. Big wuss move.

[@therealsilvermane]

1 hour ago, Bosco685 said:

Meanwhile, proclaiming the reason why many were not as big a fan of Captain Marvel was for political or even gender-based bias versus ignoring the story or lead character portrayal didn't work for them is not something these panelist would celebrate. The panel was about stories and characters that honor strong female heroines.

Did any of them say they weren’t fans of Captain Marvel? Gosh, I didn’t hear that part. Or they didn’t. You like to put words in people’s mouths I know.
Anyway, I’m quite sure the women of this panel are aware of Comicsgate and all those other things, but I respect they stayed on topic and complained about the common tropes and lazy writing in the industry. 

[akaSteveRogers]

32 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Especially that part in Captain Marvel where Fury purposely swerves his car into the bus so the Skrull in the passenger seat gets taken out. Big wuss move.

Im glad you pulled one scene from 2hr+ movie, but it wasnt a knock.  As I said, he was new to this whole "alien invasion" thing and was no where near the "tough guy", grizzled Head of SHIELD Fury you see in every other MCU movie.  Not sure why youre so defensive.

[Bosco685]

47 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Did any of them say they weren’t fans of Captain Marvel? Gosh, I didn’t hear that part. Or they didn’t. You like to put words in people’s mouths I know.
Anyway, I’m quite sure the women of this panel are aware of Comicsgate and all those other things, but I respect they stayed on topic and complained about the common tropes and lazy writing in the industry. 

You mean like when you accuse people of being anti-feminist if they disliked Captain Marvel - that kind of 'putting words in people's mouths'? 

Glad you respect their beliefs and quote them when it suits your rumors and assumptions. Meanwhile, it sounds like they live these things every day as females in the comic book industry. Go you!

[@therealsilvermane]

1 hour ago, Bosco685 said:

You mean like when you accuse people of being anti-feminist if they disliked Captain Marvel - that kind of 'putting words in people's mouths'? 

 

Well, I don't want to put words in my own mouth as you're the expert on that I guess, but I don't think I accuse everyone of being anti-feminist or whatever. I believe I only do that when they say Captain Marvel is a feminazi or they throw out overused phrases like "SJW" when referring to said movie or they get super violent verbally on the movie because Brie Larson's acting offended them so vehemently aka they really have an agenda against the movie and the actress.

Edited July 26, 2020 by @therealsilvermane

[@therealsilvermane]

1 hour ago, Bosco685 said:

Glad you respect their beliefs and quote them when it suits your rumors and assumptions. Meanwhile, it sounds like they live these things every day as females in the comic book industry. Go you!

The ladies in the SDCC panel weren't talking about sexual harrassment in the workplace, they were talking about the lazy writing in the movie & TV  industry. I don't think you have to be a woman to understand that.

[Bosco685]

11 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Well, I don't want to put words in my own mouth as you're the expert on that I guess, but I don't think I accuse everyone of being anti-feminist or whatever. I believe I only do that when they say Captain Marvel is a feminazi or they throw out overused phrases like "SJW" when referring to said movie or they get super violent verbally on the movie because Brie Larson's acting offended them so vehemently aka they really have an agenda against the movie and the actress.

I think you have proven yourself to be so blinded by your desires for the world to love Captain Marvel as much as you do or bust, that alone clouds your judgement.

Now accusing me of putting words in your mouth when you do that all by yourself, good luck with that.

[Bosco685]

9 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

The ladies in the SDCC panel weren't talking about sexual harrassment in the workplace, they were talking about the lazy writing in the movie & TV  industry. I don't think you have to be a woman to understand that.

See, your mind is too clouded with this topic. These women - including the person in the video that is also in transition which then deals with its own pressures - also talked about when creative leaders force their teams to interpret the female character in a less than pleasing light. That has nothing to do with sexual harassment. It was the imagery conveyed by these productions that women are there to just be side players in the grander picture.

Why do you think the panel name was 'Building A Better Heroine'?

[@therealsilvermane]

31 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

See, your mind is too clouded with this topic. These women - including the person in the video that is also in transition which then deals with its own pressures - also talked about when creative leaders force their teams to interpret the female character in a less than pleasing light. That has nothing to do with sexual harassment. It was the imagery conveyed by these productions that women are there to just be side players in the grander picture.

Why do you think the panel name was 'Building A Better Heroine'?

Anyway, the comic book movie industry has finally built a better heroine and her name is Carol Danvers.

[Bosco685]

25 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Anyway, the comic book movie industry has finally built a better heroine and her name is Carol Danvers.

Okay