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How Lee took credit for "This Man This Monster" by FF Historian Chris Tolworthy
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74 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, comicginger1789 said:

Tis why I love comics. Much can be left to interpretation. As for who deserves credit, I prefer to credit all involved from Stan to Jack to Artie to Joe to whoever delivered their coffee in the office. Well done for putting out a great issue!

Absolutely. Even if Stan gave Jack an idea he DIDN'T use, he still contributed by making Jack think and possibly inspiring him to go a direction he might not have. And there are plenty of other instances where Stan DID directly contribute.

Like all great creative collaborations it was doomed to not last forever, but while it did, it produced some great works. 

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Lee takes credit for the lifting sequence in ASM 33 despite the fact the Ditko wrote it and Lee admitted as much. He also takes credit for Fin Fang Foom despite the fact that he wrote none of the pre-hero monster books.

Edited by gunsmokin
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3 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

Read this and thought it interesting enough to post here...

 

How Lee took credit for "This Man This Monster" by FF Historian Chris Tolworthy

 

(2) Lee's reputation rests mostly on this book. This is due to the above misunderstanding.

Wha? 

:screwy:

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2 hours ago, comicginger1789 said:

Tis why I love comics. Much can be left to interpretation. As for who deserves credit, I prefer to credit all involved from Stan to Jack to Artie to Joe to whoever delivered their coffee in the office. Well done for putting out a great issue!

This..  

At this point its impossible to determine who exactly was responsible for what. Those guys collaborated an awful lot and I'm just really happy they were all together at the right time and place..  

I do give Stan a lot of credit for one thing that isn't widely discussed...  My father worked at an art college in CT and artists are crazy!   Trying to get those guys to stay on schedule, meet deadlines and keep their egos in check must have been maddening.

Bill Everett's daughter told a story about how her father always waited to the last minute, would go to NY, party for days and hand in something he threw together at the last minute. Stan would pay him in cash and then he would go home and throw the cash in the air for him and his children to swim in.  I felt like that story could have been any one of the commissioned artists at my father's school. They were just "free spirits".  And Stan deserves credit for keeping the wheels on

Maybe he took to much credit, maybe the greatest charector he really created was "Stan Lee".  But I think the guy worked tirelessly to give us marvel comics. More so than any other individual. 

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1 hour ago, KCOComics said:

This..  

At this point its impossible to determine who exactly was responsible for what. Those guys collaborated an awful lot and I'm just really happy they were all together at the right time and place..  

I do give Stan a lot of credit for one thing that isn't widely discussed...  My father worked at an art college in CT and artists are crazy!   Trying to get those guys to stay on schedule, meet deadlines and keep their egos in check must have been maddening.

Bill Everett's daughter told a story about how her father always waited to the last minute, would go to NY, party for days and hand in something he threw together at the last minute. Stan would pay him in cash and then he would go home and throw the cash in the air for him and his children to swim in.  I felt like that story could have been any one of the commissioned artists at my father's school. They were just "free spirits".  And Stan deserves credit for keeping the wheels on

Maybe he took to much credit, maybe the greatest charector he really created was "Stan Lee".  But I think the guy worked tirelessly to give us marvel comics. More so than any other individual. 

Kirby’s work ethic totally debunks this. He was driven to provide for his family. Jack consistently said the creations were his and I tend to believe him over Lee’s huckster nonsense. His creative success beyond Marvel is further proof.

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15 minutes ago, gunsmokin said:

Kirby’s work ethic totally debunks this. He was driven to provide for his family. Jack consistently said the creations were his and I tend to believe him over Lee’s huckster nonsense. His creative success beyond Marvel is further proof.

It's a fair point. I mean, look how many titles Jack was drawing in those days. It's crazy to think about. 

I do stand by Stan doing more than anyone else to create Marvel. For all those titles Jack was drawing Stan was writing or at least editing those and a dozen others. He was running the operation, responding to fans letters, touring the country putting a face to Marvel comics. 

I will never take creative credit away from the artists. I just think Stan deserves his place in comic book history.  I think the creative part in the early 60s was very much a collaboration and credit is due all around. The business, marketing, and managerial responsibilities that built Marvel fell pretty heavily on Stan's shoulders. 

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1 hour ago, KCOComics said:

It's a fair point. I mean, look how many titles Jack was drawing in those days. It's crazy to think about. 

I do stand by Stan doing more than anyone else to create Marvel.

Seriously? You mean promoting or creating?

Stan Lee and Marvel/Atlas were about ready to close their doors when Kirby came back and brought the Monster Books with him that jump started the company again. 

Once the Superheros began, his part in it monthly was just as valuable as Stan's. That's why Stan used him to train all the new artists to draw like him - so that he could increase the amount of books. So Jack had to do layouts for the books of other artists who they brought in on top of his own work load (and not get paid for it). AND do a bunch of the covers!

As an example - February 1965 - and this is when he was trying to back off a bit from being over worked...

Jack does full pencils for Fantastic Four #38, Journey into Mystery #115, and a 10 page Cap story in Tales of Suspense #65

He does layouts (i.e. story breakdown) for Avengers #115 (comics.org doesn't credit any Kirby layouts that aren't noted in the books. But there are photostats showing many more books he did layouts for that he didn't get mentioned in the book credits.).

And he does covers for Fantastic Four #38, Journey into Mystery #115, Kid Colt Outlaw #122, Avengers #15, Sgt. Fury #17, Strange Tales #132, Tales of Suspense #65, Tales to Astonish #67, and Two Gun Kid #75

That's 50 full pages of art + 20 layout pages (at least) and 9 covers!

That month Stan wrote/edited or plotted a possible 14 books total...

2 1/2 by Kirby (easy, as Kirby's a storyteller in his own right) and 1 1/2 by Ditko (again, easy because Ditko's his own storyteller). Wally Wood says he plotted the Daredevil stories - Lieber scripts all of Tales to Astonish #43, and half of Tales of Suspense #41 and Strange Tales #108 (R Berns aka Robert Bernstein scripts the other half of both books) from (what's credited as) Stan Lee plots. 

Stan is listed as scripter on Kid Colt Outlaw #110, and Two Gun Kid #75, and Sgt. Fury #17 plus the Millie the Model #117, Modeling With Millie #138 and Patsy Walker #120. (We all have read the Stan Goldberg quote about how THAT writing arrangement worked - Not sure I ever read anything from Ayers...).

Soon after, Roy Thomas would join to take over numerous books to ease Stan's work load. 

Quote

For all those titles Jack was drawing Stan was writing or at least editing those and a dozen others. He was running the operation, responding to fans letters, touring the country putting a face to Marvel comics. 

I will never take creative credit away from the artists. I just think Stan deserves his place in comic book history. 

I don't think Stan's contribution could ever be seen any less than it already is. He was the most recognizable face in comics, and most recognizable name in comics. I'm not even sure who #2 would be. He made Millions of Dollars and achieved fame that most could only dream of. 

Quote

I think the creative part in the early 60s was very much a collaboration and credit is due all around. The business, marketing, and managerial responsibilities that built Marvel fell pretty heavily on Stan's shoulders. 

Without Stan Lee, Marvel would've never become what they became. No question.

But without Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, there'd have been no Marvel Comics.

Edited by Chuck Gower
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3 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Seriously? You mean promoting or creating?

Stan Lee and Marvel/Atlas were about ready to close their doors when Kirby came back and brought the Monster Books with him that jump started the company again. 

Once the Superheros began, his part in it monthly was just as valuable as Stan's. That's why Stan used him to train all the new artists to draw like him - so that he could increase the amount of books. So Jack had to do layouts for the books of other artists who they brought in on top of his own work load (and not get paid for it). AND do a bunch of the covers!

As an example - February 1965 - and this is when he was trying to back off a bit from being over worked...

Jack does full pencils for Fantastic Four #38, Journey into Mystery #115, and a 10 page Cap story in Tales of Suspense #65

He does layouts (i.e. story breakdown) for Avengers #115 (comics.org doesn't credit any Kirby layouts that aren't noted in the books. But there are photostats showing many more books he did layouts for that he didn't get mentioned in the book credits.).

And he does covers for Fantastic Four #38, Journey into Mystery #115, Kid Colt Outlaw #122, Avengers #15, Sgt. Fury #17, Strange Tales #132, Tales of Suspense #65, Tales to Astonish #67, and Two Gun Kid #75

That's 50 full pages of art + 20 layout pages (at least) and 9 covers!

That month Stan wrote/edited or plotted a possible 14 books total (that's all Marvel was allowed - its another long story)

2 1/2 by Kirby (easy, as Kirby's a storyteller in his own right) and 1 1/2 by Ditko (again, easy because Ditko's his own storyteller). Wally Wood says he plotted the Daredevil stories - Lieber scripts all of Tales to Astonish #43, and half of Tales of Suspense #41 and Strange Tales #108 (R Berns aka Robert Bernstein scripts the other half of both books) from (what's credited as) Stan Lee plots. 

Stan is listed as scripter on Kid Colt Outlaw #110, and Two Gun Kid #75, and Sgt. Fury #17 plus the Millie the Model #117, Modeling With Millie #138 and Patsy Walker #120. (We all have read the Stan Goldberg quote about how THAT writing arrangement worked - Not sure I ever read anything from Ayers...).

Soon after, Roy Thomas would join to take over numerous books to ease Stan's work load. 

I don't think Stan's contribution could ever be seen any less than it already is. He was the most recognizable face in comics, and most recognizable name in comics. I'm not even sure who #2 would be. He made Millions of Dollars and achieved fame that most could only dream of. 

Without Stan Lee, Marvel would've never become what they became. No question.

But without Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, there'd have been no Marvel Comics.

You bring allot of facts I can't even begin to contest lol

Your right,  Stan has gotten plenty of recognition. 

Your also right about the insane amount of work Jack was responsible for.  It's pretty stunning when you spell it out like that. 

I'm going to tred lightly because I don't want to appear to be against Jack or Steve.  

I just feel like there is allot of anti Stan sentiment among collectors. And part of that stems from the self promotion and credit grabbing.  As much as that shameless self promoting is real,  I don't think it should take away from what he actually did do for the industry. 

For what it's worth, I love Kirby. If you read FF5 the story is really kind of silly. Doctor Doom wants to build a time machine to go steal pirates treasure?  

I think Dr. Doom should have been DOA with that story. What saved one of the great villians was how sinister Kirby drew him. The art was far more compelling than the story!  

I'll probably have people disagree with me about that too lol But I'm ok with disagreements. Frankly,  it's just fun to discuss this stuff with someone besides my 7 year old son. 

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15 minutes ago, KCOComics said:

You bring allot of facts I can't even begin to contest lol

Your right,  Stan has gotten plenty of recognition. 

Your also right about the insane amount of work Jack was responsible for.  It's pretty stunning when you spell it out like that. 

I'm going to tred lightly because I don't want to appear to be against Jack or Steve.  

I just feel like there is allot of anti Stan sentiment among collectors. And part of that stems from the self promotion and credit grabbing.  As much as that shameless self promoting is real,  I don't think it should take away from what he actually did do for the industry. 

I think it's just some backlash because of HOW much credit he's gotten. Stan's an important part of the history of comics, and there's no denying it. I just try and see it for what it actually is and present facts as much as possible.

15 minutes ago, KCOComics said:

For what it's worth, I love Kirby. If you read FF5 the story is really kind of silly. Doctor Doom wants to build a time machine to go steal pirates treasure?  

I think Dr. Doom should have been DOA with that story. What saved one of the great villians was how sinister Kirby drew him. The art was far more compelling than the story!  

I'll probably have people disagree with me about that too lol But I'm ok with disagreements. Frankly,  it's just fun to discuss this stuff with someone besides my 7 year old son. 

A LOT of those early stories were kinda goofy! And yes, I LOVE to discuss this stuff! Not everyone agrees with everyone else, but I think discussing this kinda stuff can be interesting and educational and... and fun!

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3 hours ago, KirbyJack said:

My favorite contribution of Stan’s is the distinctive voice he gave each character. I’ll bet I could give a quote from any major player circa 65-66 and a well-read Marvelite could name them.

1. Move as fast as you want! Sooner or later I'll connect -- and when I do--!!

2. Hey! Hold it! Did you lose your marbles or something? I'm trying to help!

3. His debt to you may be paid -- but he owes me a little something!!

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4 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

I think it's just some backlash because of HOW much credit he's gotten. Stan's an important part of the history of comics, and there's no denying it. I just try and see it for what it actually is and present facts as much as possible.

A LOT of those early stories were kinda goofy! And yes, I LOVE to discuss this stuff! Not everyone agrees with everyone else, but I think discussing this kinda stuff can be interesting and educational and... and fun!

 

Totally agree on both. And to be fair,  what got me into collecting was the art.  I was a child of the 80s and 90s so I was buying up Punisher and batman books, but seeing the cover of FF49 was when I fell in love with collecting. 

 

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Just now, KCOComics said:

 

Totally agree on both. And to be fair,  what got me into collecting was the art.  I was a child of the 80s and 90s so I was buying up Punisher and batman books, but seeing the cover of FF49 was when I fell in love with collecting. 

 

Yep. And that's why... and this isn't a knock on Stan at all, just the way I see it... but... it's always been about the art to me. You can have the best written story in the world, if the art sucks, what's the point? 

But you can have a very average story and GREAT art, and I'm ok with that.

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I equate comics to hockey.

In hockey you have a coach. He has to get everyone together to put a decent finished product on the ice that fans will like. You have your big name players (all star artists) and reliable vets and fill ins (good at giving a last minute story to help ya win). The coach deserves credit for structuring a winning team and the players for scoring goals or keeping them out or whatever their position requires. Stan ran a ship to success and made enemies at times perhaps deserved. The end result was greatness more often than not. A true team effort. Not one guy doing everything right. Not one writer writing epic story after epic story that carried the company. Not one artist drawing epic cover and splash page after page fueling success. Everyone together helping and carrying the team some nights but more often working together to produce a great comic.

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1 minute ago, Chuck Gower said:

Yep. And that's why... and this isn't a knock on Stan at all, just the way I see it... but... it's always been about the art to me. You can have the best written story in the world, if the art sucks, what's the point? 

But you can have a very average story and GREAT art, and I'm ok with that.

Allot of the pre hero stuff from the 50s is a great example.  You read strange suspense stories or even the old TOS and JIM the stories are very hit and miss. But I love the art! The monsters and mysterious covers. I eat it up. 

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