When buying comics at a convention... 2 2

[JazzMan]

At conventions I know I am paying more for my books and I happily do it because I realize the expense the dealer has gone in order for them to be there, especially if you're coming in from out of town.  I will get a "deal" and haggle a little, but generally I'll pay above market price for the shear convenience.

[manetteska]

How about major dealers at major conventions who bring in a “new” collection that either has old prices on it or no price at all. Then when you bring books up to buy each one is individually checked against eBay. 

Basically doing all of the key digging for them, in their own stock, to get eBay 9.8 prices against raw books. Just saw it happen this Sunday. 

[Dick Pontoon]

Maybe part of the problem LordRahl and October refer to is regional. For shows in my neck of the woods, there’s often a mix of dealers with books ranging from bargains to FMV to mutliples of Guide or GPA. Usually I just pass by the folks who’ve priced books at 2x-3x OS/FMV/GPA trends. Sounds like certain shows only the Superpriced guys set up.

Don’t want to contribute to an Us vs. Them mentality but let’s face it, some people price their books very aggressively. (Even nice guys that I like.) Conversely, some buyers are complete tools. I remember one clown trying to beat up a dealer on his Marvel Superheroes #12 that was priced reasonably, but not as low as a recent sale on Clink. This guy went on and on trying to convince the dealer it was too high; I was dying to blurt out “Well, why didn’t you buy it on ComiclInk then?”

One thing I’ve found that doesn’t seem to get mentioned much is that cultivating relationships is something to consider. Pretty much everybody I buy from regularly takes some off the top without even being asked, and I’m no B. Ketterer, Esq. 

[1Cool]

12 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

So what is the bible of Fair Market value?  

I've had buyers use every one of the below

GPA 

 - Last GPA sale

 - 90 day GPA sale

- 12 month GPA sale

Go Collect

I have guys whipping out the Overstreet price guide

Comicpriceguide.com

Comiclink last sale which I can either verify or can't.

Ebay

Each of the above depending on what that particular buyer is using can result in a "No sale" or "2-3X FMV" type comment depending on how your price stacks up.  Most buyers don't wait long enough to even ask when did I price that particular item which may give some insight on why I'm 2-3X FMV.  Comic dealer pricing is NOT Nasdaq Electronic trading quotes updating instantly based on bid/ask spreads.

 

Definitely not Overstreet!  But I'd think the most fair would be 90 day GPA and completed sales on E-Bay (unless you are talking about a sudden hot book that is just popping).  But I'd think these negotiations are not in the magnitude of 2x or 3x in price.  Debating if a $300 book should be $250 due to 90 day GPA is a worthwhile back and forth but we all know of booths were you look at every hot book and they have them at $400 whereas you can grab a copy for $200 on E-Bay (for example).  I tend to pass those guys right on by and I don't blame others for doing it also.  I realize books jump up and and down and nobody can keep up with every book and I'm not talking about your booth since you keep up with prices as good as any but some other booths just seem to be pulling prices out of thin air with no semblance of reality.

[blazingbob]

5 minutes ago, manetteska said:

How about major dealers at major conventions who bring in a “new” collection that either has old prices on it or no price at all. Then when you bring books up to buy each one is individually checked against eBay. 

Basically doing all of the key digging for them, in their own stock, to get eBay 9.8 prices against raw books. Just saw it happen this Sunday. 

This type of dealer would never get another purchase from me.  And yes I do know a couple of guys who do this.  

[theCapraAegagrus]

2 minutes ago, Pontoon said:

...I’m no B. Ketterer, Esq. 

[blazingbob]

4 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

Definitely not Overstreet!  But I'd think the most fair would be 90 day GPA and completed sales on E-Bay (unless you are talking about a sudden hot book that is just popping).  But I'd think these negotiations are not in the magnitude of 2x or 3x in price.  Debating if a $300 book should be $250 due to 90 day GPA is a worthwhile back and forth but we all know of booths were you look at every hot book and they have them at $400 whereas you can grab a copy for $200 on E-Bay (for example).  I tend to pass those guys right on by and I don't blame others for doing it also.  I realize books jump up and and down and nobody can keep up with every book and I'm not talking about your booth since you keep up with prices as good as any but some other booths just seem to be pulling prices out of thin air with no semblance of reality.

Just like most people won't ask a "Dealer" who taught them how to grade most won't ask "how did you come up with this price?"  Granted the way that is communicated will heavily influence the response.

[blazingbob]

7 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

Definitely not Overstreet!  But I'd think the most fair would be 90 day GPA and completed sales on E-Bay (unless you are talking about a sudden hot book that is just popping).  But I'd think these negotiations are not in the magnitude of 2x or 3x in price.  Debating if a $300 book should be $250 due to 90 day GPA is a worthwhile back and forth but we all know of booths were you look at every hot book and they have them at $400 whereas you can grab a copy for $200 on E-Bay (for example).  I tend to pass those guys right on by and I don't blame others for doing it also.  I realize books jump up and and down and nobody can keep up with every book and I'm not talking about your booth since you keep up with prices as good as any but some other booths just seem to be pulling prices out of thin air with no semblance of reality.

Ok,  I just listed a TOS #39 5.5 OWP Date stamp on back cover,  Asking price $11K.  What is FMV?

Last GPA was $9950

90 day $9425

No copy on Comiclink

5.5 on Ebay for $10,299, cream/offwhite pages date stamp front cover

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by blazingbob

[manetteska]

11 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

 

17 minutes ago, manetteska said:

How about major dealers at major conventions who bring in a “new” collection that either has old prices on it or no price at all. Then when you bring books up to buy each one is individually checked against eBay. 

Basically doing all of the key digging for them, in their own stock, to get eBay 9.8 prices against raw books. Just saw it happen this Sunday. 

This type of dealer would never get another purchase from me.  And yes I do know a couple of guys who do this.  

 

I also wonder how legitimate the “collection just came in” really is. Seems like every year one dealer has an 80 box collection right before Chicago he can’t seem to price in time. 

[1Cool]

3 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

Ok,  I just listed a TOS #39 5.5 OWP Date stamp on back cover,  Asking price $11K.  What is FMV?

Last GPA was $9950

90 day $9450

 

I'd say $10,500 - $11,000 would be the going rate for that book.  Better page quality then one up for sale a bit cheaper on E-Bay and 5.0 can be had for $8,400 with cream pages so I'd probably price it at $11K like you and accept $10,500.  I'd even say $12,000 would not be crazy prices but I've seen plenty of booth with a $18K price tag on that kind of book and they are shocked that they are not busier. 

[greggy]

7 minutes ago, manetteska said:

I also wonder how legitimate the “collection just came in” really is. Seems like every year one dealer has an 80 box collection right before Chicago he can’t seem to price in time. 

Is this Kristina's Collectibles?

[Krismusic]

12 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

Ok,  I just listed a TOS #39 5.5 OWP Date stamp on back cover,  Asking price $11K.  What is FMV?

Last GPA was $9950

90 day $9425

No copy on Comiclink

5.5 on Ebay for $10,299, cream/offwhite pages date stamp front cover

 

personally I would want to be at 9700 then I usually use 90 day GPA and Last day sale and average between the two for a comfortable price I am at.. ask is always whatever you want it to be.. assuming the 10k eBay is ask not a sold listing? 

 

[1Cool]

4 minutes ago, Krismusic said:

personally I would want to be at 9700 then I usually use 90 day GPA and Last day sale and average between the two for a comfortable price I am at.. ask is always whatever you want it to be.. assuming the 10k eBay is ask not a sold listing? 

 

Would you walk away if he came down to $10,200?  Best price for that book right now and only a couple hundred dollars higher then last sale.  Some people can be patient buyers and know another copy will come around in a month or two but as a patient seller he can gauge his price by the other books up for sale right now since you can't get that book that sold - it's gone into a collection.  But all in all we have broken FMV down to only a 10% margin between what is wanted as a buyer and what is wanted as a seller.  Pretty narrow margin in terms of what is FMV.

[blazingbob]

1 minute ago, 1Cool said:

Would you walk away if he came down to $10,200?  Best price for that book right now and only a couple hundred dollars higher then last sale.  Some people can be patient buyers and know another copy will come around in a month or two but as a patient seller he can gauge his price by the other books up for sale right now since you can't get that book that sold - it's gone into a collection.  But all in all we have broken FMV down to only a 10% margin between what is wanted as a buyer and what is wanted as a seller.  Pretty narrow margin in terms of what is FMV.

 

13 minutes ago, Krismusic said:

personally I would want to be at 9700 then I usually use 90 day GPA and Last day sale and average between the two for a comfortable price I am at.. ask is always whatever you want it to be.. assuming the 10k eBay is ask not a sold listing? 

 

The $10,299 is the ask price since why would I use Ebay for the completed sale price?  That's what GPA collects.

[zosocane]

For raw books, I always look at eBay as a discount to FMV - 25% to 30% lower.  That's because -- and this is a fact -- most eBay sellers cannot grade a comic book correctly to save their lives (ignorance/negligence), or they purposefully overgrade it to realize a higher price (borderline fraud in the inducement).  "NM", yeah, right.  How often have all of us taken that bait?  Scans are ultimately two-dimensional, I don't care how good the scan is.  Those eBay sale prices on raw books?  They reflect over-grade risk that the market has built into the book.  Which is why at conventions, prices of course are higher than eBay, sometimes, significantly, and especially for keys.  Because at cons, you get the three-dimensional experience of holding, inspect the book, and grade it yourself and see if your grade aligns with what the dealer believes the grade is.  That, to me, is a better reflection of FMV, because over-grade risk is 'de-risked' from the transaction.  When a buyer, with years of experience, gets to know the truly reputable dealers/sellers in this hobby that grade reliably (like a Bob Storms), you can bet that a "NM" book at a con (or online) from one of those dealers is really a NM book, the over-grade risk is absent from the transaction, and, consequently, the price need not come down to eBay deep/deeper discount levels.  Of course, there are sellers/dealers at cons and online that, in my experience, price too aggressively (even if they grade correctly), and I just ignore those sellers/dealers.

[manetteska]

34 minutes ago, greggy said:

42 minutes ago, manetteska said:

I also wonder how legitimate the “collection just came in” really is. Seems like every year one dealer has an 80 box collection right before Chicago he can’t seem to price in time. 

Is this Kristina's Collectibles?

Yep. The whole thing is also unorganized. Each year it lures me in bc other booths have a similar setup but the books are all $1-$3 so you think this is the same. And there are good books in there, just you have to do all the work and then get hammered for fmv graded prices. 

[Krismusic]

5 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

Would you walk away if he came down to $10,200?  Best price for that book right now and only a couple hundred dollars higher then last sale.  Some people can be patient buyers and know another copy will come around in a month or two but as a patient seller he can gauge his price by the other books up for sale right now since you can't get that book that sold - it's gone into a collection.  But all in all we have broken FMV down to only a 10% margin between what is wanted as a buyer and what is wanted as a seller.  Pretty narrow margin in terms of what is FMV.

it would depend on the book as I know GPA is great for sales data but there are a bit more things to a books appeal to buyers besides numerical grade I would look at eye appeal, page colour, etc.. and look at what others have sold at and take a average of what I think would be reasonable. There are defects some collectors are ok with and some aren't there might be a good chunk of the page missing, detached staples, stains, fading, foxing, etc... that is not always easily seen in GPA pricing so I would do my best on a large book to average, generally I only do this in depth analysis on large value books of 300$ or more. Books that are like under 50$ I generally don't do much of a evaluation. a 5-10$ difference isn't going to make or break me... 

[revat]

I think another thing that also doesn't factor in as much as it should is opportunity cost (on both sides).

I know dealers aren't getting into business to make 10% or even break even on comics, but if a comic has been sitting on the shelf for like 2 years, even if you're losing money it might be nice to cycle the cash or the inventory.  If its not a key or popular issue, you probably bought it as part of a larger group you've already broken even on.  Yes it can hurt the pride a bit to lose money on a book, especially if its genuinely rare or nice, but clearly there's not that many buyers for that book.  Cycling fresh inventory and turning over your money has value too.

 

On the other side, customers who want hot or rising books for discounts or even market value should consider that the dealer might think they can sell the book for 10-25% more in a month or two with a movie or movie trailer or whatever.  Why should they sell it to you at a discount now?  Especially if its a popular wall book that brings in customers, or it's not an easily replaced book.

[Deadpoolica]

18 hours ago, LordRahl said:

This is never my experience at shows. It's more like 2-3x what I can get a book at on ebay. If it were $5 bucks, yes I'd take all factors into account. But when the starting price is literally more than double and sometimes triple what I know I can buy it for online, why would I bother? Just went to a show in Stockton where this was exactly the case with both raw and graded books. I know I can negotiate but when I'd literally have to offer 1/3 of the asking price, I just don't bother. I had one dealer tell me everything was negotiable, especially the more I buy... that guys was charging $250 for a CGC graded 9.4 copy of Moon Knight 1. They sell for less than a $100 on a regular basis and it's not like the shipping and taxes on top of that is going to make up the difference. That one book wasn't the exception either, everything I looked at was grossly overpriced. I'm not really sure who's buying this stuff at anything even close to what was being asked. 

That's 85% of dealers at shows now...You can't negotiate when prices are that overpriced

[Deadpoolica]

1 hour ago, manetteska said:

How about major dealers at major conventions who bring in a “new” collection that either has old prices on it or no price at all. Then when you bring books up to buy each one is individually checked against eBay. 

Basically doing all of the key digging for them, in their own stock, to get eBay 9.8 prices against raw books. Just saw it happen this Sunday. 

That is the most frustrating that will happen at almost every show, don't have me dig for 30 minutes for you to say "oh those aren't the real prices" when I bring up a pile of books