When buying comics at a convention... 2 2

[blazingbob]

1 minute ago, Deadpoolica said:

That is the most frustrating that will happen at almost every show, don't have me dig for 30 minutes for you to say "oh those aren't the real prices" when I bring up a pile of books 

Whenever I walk up with a ungraded/unpriced stack the deal ALWAYS sucks.  The dealer always assumes I'm only buying high grade and prices it that way without even taking them out of the bag.

[october]

1 hour ago, blazingbob said:

Ok,  I just listed a TOS #39 5.5 OWP Date stamp on back cover,  Asking price $11K.  What is FMV?

Last GPA was $9950

90 day $9425

No copy on Comiclink

5.5 on Ebay for $10,299, cream/offwhite pages date stamp front cover

 

Who knows? Is the book you have faded? Miswrapped? Miscut? Obtrusively creased? Stained? What about the ones that sold on GPA? Gauging an exact fair market value (whatever that is) just using GPA is pointless....which is probably your exact point. 

That said, I can tell you what fair market value isn't. A raw G/VG FF 48 priced at $1200. A $300 VG Matt Baker war book priced at $900. A VG/F LB Cole Blue Bolt 112 priced at $2500. I get that those are hotter issues. I get that they are hard to replace in inventory. I also get that those are "fishing for a sucker" prices. 

[october]

2 hours ago, blazingbob said:

I agree that if most people truly figured out the real cost of buying a lot of items they would be surprised.

A dealers cost is 

1).  Cost of the inventory,  books aren't free and very few sellers are selling high grade at 1/2 of OSPG

2).  Shiny mylars/mylites, boards.  Adds .50-$1 cost to each book.  

3).  CGC/CBCS or any other graded comic.  Adds up to 25% to the cost of the raw book.  

4).  Booth cost

5).  Hotels

6).  Food

7).  Gas

8).  Insurance

9).  Paying help if applicable

10).  Electronic payment costs 1-4%

For any multiple 3 day show my minimum cost is $3500.  Now while many of you think that dealers profit margins are 50-100% think again.  I have to make $3500 profit to break even,  not $3500 in sales.  If you are telling yourself you did $3500 and made money I suggest a little honesty check with yourself because unless you got that inventory for $0 you LOST money.

A online venue will always have a price advantage since there is no booth cost,  no hotel,  food is whatever you buy at home, gas is only the cost to drive the books to the shipping agent.  Problem when you rely just on online sales is the constant need to have new stuff and driving traffic to your online store or ebay id.  You are also very reliant on third party information when it comes to what is selling and what is not.  Now while some of you would prefer not to do anything face to face sometimes you need to go out to a show to see what sells and what doesn't.  There is just as much mis-information as real information.   

The flipside is also true. Dealers expect customers to show up. For me to attend an out of state convention (WW Nashville is awful) I have to: 

1. Drive 5-10 hours each way. (gas)

2. Eat out. (food)

3. Possibly buy a badge, maybe have it comped. 

4. Get a hotel. 

5. Pay for parking. 

6. Likely take a day off work, or at least miss a weekend home (that's not always bad). 

These costs are not insignificant. Why should I incur them if I can get the same books, for potentially less, sitting at home in my office? Seeing other people is great. Buying books in person is (for me) only marginally better than buying online. It's just not enough to offset the costs if I am paying a premium. I just spent that time and effort for a net negative. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by october

[blazingbob]

2 minutes ago, october said:

The flipside is also true. Dealers expect customers to show up. For me to attend an out of state convention (WW Nashville is awful) I have to: 

1. Drive 5-10 hours each way. (gas)

2. Eat out. (food)

3. Possibly buy a badge, maybe have it comped. 

4. Get a hotel. 

5. Pay for parking. 

6. Likely take a day off work, or at least miss a weekend home (that's not always bad). 

These costs are not insignificant. Why should I incur them if I can get the same books, for potentially less, sitting at home in my office? Seeing other people is great. Buying books in person is (for me) only marginally better than buying online. It's just not enough to offset the costs if I am paying a premium. I just spent that time and effort for a net negative. 

Stay home,  feel free to buy books off my website.  I'd love nothing more then to have the website orders.  

[manetteska]

Saw a de-slabbed 3.0 Catman 31 at a show last weekend for $1500. A still-slabbed 4.5 just sold for $1125. How do you make an offer when prices are this far apart? Do I even look at his other books or assume they are similarly priced? This was a small show so no huge overhead for setting up or hotel or traveling costs.

Another dealer (who many know) had a lot of unorganized and unpriced boxes. I took out three magazines including a Vampire Tales; I was hoping to get a good deal on that book as maybe he didn’t know it was good. Instead he looks at that book, says, “Oh, that’s a hot book, it’s $400” without even taking it out of the bag and board. This book goes for ~ $125. This is what I mean when I say dealers are overpriced at conventions. 

[Old_Man_Adam]

2 hours ago, blazingbob said:

So what is the bible of Fair Market value?  

I've had buyers use every one of the below

GPA 

 - Last GPA sale

 - 90 day GPA sale

- 12 month GPA sale

Go Collect

I have guys whipping out the Overstreet price guide

Comicpriceguide.com

Comiclink last sale which I can either verify or can't.

Ebay

Each of the above depending on what that particular buyer is using can result in a "No sale" or "2-3X FMV" type comment depending on how your price stacks up.  Most buyers don't wait long enough to even ask when did I price that particular item which may give some insight on why I'm 2-3X FMV.  Comic dealer pricing is NOT Nasdaq Electronic trading quotes updating instantly based on bid/ask spreads.

 

I’m not a fan of Overstreet as a source - I’ve said that before and feel by the time the latest guide issue is printed , the values have already changed- between movies , shows , new comic events and speculation - accurate market results generally don’t stem from a book - that’s gone the way of the dinosaur ... and baseball card 

[KEY ISSUES Comics]

4 hours ago, 1Cool said:

I've not heard the usual counter argument from buyers where they compare the price they paid to get in and the gas to drive there which is why they only pay GPA or lowest e-bay prices.  Why should they eat all those expenses and still pay over E-Bay prices when they could stay at home and get books delivered to them.  

One could then say that their computer, internet, electricity, etc. have an inherent cost too.

However, I do agree with the argument from a buyer's perspective when attending large, expensive cons, but the exhibitor is paying a fortune to set up as well, so they kinda cancel each other out as arguments for paying less or selling for more.

[blazingbob]

5 minutes ago, manetteska said:

Saw a de-slabbed 3.0 Catman 31 at a show last weekend for $1500. A still-slabbed 4.5 just sold for $1125. How do you make an offer when prices are this far apart? Do I even look at his other books or assume they are similarly priced? This was a small show so no huge overhead for setting up or hotel or traveling costs.

Another dealer (who many know) had a lot of unorganized and unpriced boxes. I took out three magazines including a Vampire Tales; I was hoping to get a good deal on that book as maybe he didn’t know it was good. Instead he looks at that book, says, “Oh, that’s a hot book, it’s $400” without even taking it out of the bag and board. This book goes for ~ $125. This is what I mean when I say dealers are overpriced at conventions. 

If you were interested did you tell him a 4.5 CGC copy just sold in Jan 2020 sold for $1125.  At small shows this could have been the first copy the guy ever had and is pricing it like he will never have another.

As far as the Vampire tales goes a CGC 8.0 sold for $115 in Jan 2020.  I'm assuming it was a lot nicer and again I would have questioned his asking price.

[Deadpoolica]

12 minutes ago, october said:

The flipside is also true. Dealers expect customers to show up. For me to attend an out of state convention (WW Nashville is awful) I have to: 

1. Drive 5-10 hours each way. (gas)

2. Eat out. (food)

3. Possibly buy a badge, maybe have it comped. 

4. Get a hotel. 

5. Pay for parking. 

6. Likely take a day off work, or at least miss a weekend home (that's not always bad). 

These costs are not insignificant. Why should I incur them if I can get the same books, for potentially less, sitting at home in my office? Seeing other people is great. Buying books in person is (for me) only marginally better than buying online. It's just not enough to offset the costs if I am paying a premium. I just spent that time and effort for a net negative. 

[blazingbob]

4 minutes ago, Old_Man_Adam said:

I’m not a fan of Overstreet as a source - I’ve said that before and feel by the time the latest guide issue is printed , the values have already changed- between movies , shows , new comic events and speculation - accurate market results generally don’t stem from a book - that’s gone the way of the dinosaur ... and baseball card 

Try telling that to the customer that he is a dinosaur with one in his hand as he is checking your prices against it.

 

[LordRahl]

1 hour ago, blazingbob said:

Ok,  I just listed a TOS #39 5.5 OWP Date stamp on back cover,  Asking price $11K.  What is FMV?

Last GPA was $9950

90 day $9425

No copy on Comiclink

5.5 on Ebay for $10,299, cream/offwhite pages date stamp front cover

 

I've asked people this very question multiple times on this board and for the most part, people don't want to give a straight answer. There are no books that have a set FMV, doesn't exist. FMV is a range and that range is usually pretty wide, 15-20%. For some strange reason, people here don't want to admit that and keep talking about books selling above and or below "FMV" when in reality they are selling within their normal range of outcomes. I will say there is a big difference between the kind of pricing disparity you're talking about and what Andy and I are talking about. You are talking about a book being priced at 10-15% above "FMV" which is actually within its range of FMV. The con pricing I'm referring to is 100-200% above normal range. It's so far out that it's not even a starting point, it's just a walk away scenario.

[blazingbob]

4 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

I've asked people this very question multiple times on this board and for the most part, people don't want to give a straight answer. There are no books that have a set FMV, doesn't exist. FMV is a range and that range is usually pretty wide, 15-20%. For some strange reason, people here don't want to admit that and keep talking about books selling above and or below "FMV" when in reality they are selling within their normal range of outcomes. I will say there is a big difference between the kind of pricing disparity you're talking about and what Andy and I are talking about. You are talking about a book being priced at 10-15% above "FMV" which is actually within its range of FMV. The con pricing I'm referring to is 100-200% above normal range. It's so far out that it's not even a starting point, it's just a walk away scenario.

I guess I missed the FMV 15-20% range memo since I didn't even think it was acceptable for a seller to ask over GPA.  And as I've stated if a book is 100-200% over it could have been priced a year or 2 ago.  I'm sure a lot of dealer inventory looks overpriced after this November/December auction results. 

[Old_Man_Adam]

3 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

Try telling that to the customer that he is a dinosaur with one in his hand as he is checking your prices against it.

 

Yeah ... there’s all types . I had someone on eBay once inform me he found another similar comic at a cheaper price and asked me to not only honor that but include another comic I was selling at the price he wanted ... mind you he was an eBay member for about 10 minutes . I purchase comics WAY more than I sell them and try not to be insulting when giving offers on what people are selling ... that’s really all anyone can ask for . 

[LordRahl]

1 minute ago, blazingbob said:

I guess I missed the FMV 15-20% range memo since I didn't even think it was acceptable for a seller to ask over GPA.  And as I've stated if a book is 100-200% over it could have been priced a year or 2 ago.  I'm sure a lot of dealer inventory looks overpriced after this November/December auction results. 

But that's the whole fallacy right there. What is "over GPA"? If you look at a book that has multiple sales within the last year, there is no 1 GPA price. There is a range of prices. Of course buyers will use whichever one of those prices is most advantageous to them but the reality is that FMV is a range. Maybe the lowest price in that range was a fugly book for the grade or sold on a venue that doesn't get much traffic. Maybe the highest price in the range was shilled to get to that price. And you didn't miss the memo on it being a range, based on responses I've received on this board on this subject as well as what I see happening in the marketplace, people just seem to believe that FMV isn't a range but is just the lowest GPA price they can find if they are buying and the highest GPA price they can find if they are selling.

[manetteska]

17 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

If you were interested did you tell him a 4.5 CGC copy just sold in Jan 2020 sold for $1125.  At small shows this could have been the first copy the guy ever had and is pricing it like he will never have another.

As far as the Vampire tales goes a CGC 8.0 sold for $115 in Jan 2020.  I'm assuming it was a lot nicer and again I would have questioned his asking price.

On the Vampire - the dealer had to have done some recent research to know the book is no longer $10. So he currently believes $400 is a good price; this book is plentiful and I don’t have time at a one-day show to pick a seller’s brain as to how he got to $400 on a $100 book.

[jokiing]

31 minutes ago, Old_Man_Adam said:

I’m not a fan of Overstreet as a source - I’ve said that before and feel by the time the latest guide issue is printed , the values have already changed- between movies , shows , new comic events and speculation - accurate market results generally don’t stem from a book - that’s gone the way of the dinosaur ... and baseball card 

It should used as a reference book, not a price guide... prices listed should only be used as a guide to value/rare/content/hot but not current market prices.

Edited January 28, 2020 by jokiing

[F For Fake]

Before I go to a show, if I'm looking for a specific book(s), I'll do a little research on GPA and eBay and get an idea of the general range that a book might sell for in a given condition. I think it's good to be informed. But I'd never, ever bring up other sales to a dealer as a means of haggling. Just seems rude. It's their book, they can charge whatever they want to charge, and I assume they have their reasons for asking what they're asking. If I like the book at their price, I'll buy it. If I don't, I won't. If I feel like what I want to pay is within a reasonable distance of what they're asking, I may ask if they'd consider meeting me halfway. But I certainly wouldn't make a scene of pointing out to them that they're overcharging, complete with GPA/eBay sales data. Seems tacky. I dunno, maybe it's not a big deal, but the very idea makes me wince. 

[Deadpoolica]

5 minutes ago, XXpiggyXX said:

Why doesn't that seem reasonable? I don't want my slabs mailed Media Mail.

$10-13 is reasonable shipping price for a slab...anyone that has $20 for shipping is just making money off shipping

[blazingbob]

1 minute ago, F For Fake said:

Before I go to a show, if I'm looking for a specific book(s), I'll do a little research on GPA and eBay and get an idea of the general range that a book might sell for in a given condition. I think it's good to be informed. But I'd never, ever bring up other sales to a dealer as a means of haggling. Just seems rude. It's their book, they can charge whatever they want to charge, and I assume they have their reasons for asking what they're asking. If I like the book at their price, I'll buy it. If I don't, I won't. If I feel like what I want to pay is within a reasonable distance of what they're asking, I may ask if they'd consider meeting me halfway. But I certainly wouldn't make a scene of pointing out to them that they're overcharging, complete with GPA/eBay sales data. Seems tacky. I dunno, maybe it's not a big deal, but the very idea makes me wince. 

I am not assuming that they are overpriced.  I'm trying to understand how they priced it.  When somebody is typing on their phone for GPA I'm in my database looking up when I bought it,  when I priced it,  how long I've had it and if the deal it was in is profitable or not.  I've sold a $1200 list price for $750 when the buyer asked me.  Does it happen all the time no,  but he got the book at his price because he "ASKED".  

[blazingbob]

9 minutes ago, manetteska said:

On the Vampire - the dealer had to have done some recent research to know the book is no longer $10. So he currently believes $400 is a good price; this book is plentiful and I don’t have time at a one-day show to pick a seller’s brain as to how he got to $400 on a $100 book.

Only way he thought it was worth $400 was if he used the 9.2 Apr 2019 GPA price.  That's the only logic I can apply to that price.