Seemingly legit Ebay store sold and then relisted items using same pictures. 1 1

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, Batgirlwholaughs said:

So what does it mean to relist items by using the same pictures.

I clicked on this because I buy stuff from eBay and Amazon all the time (sorry boys,not comics) mostly clothes and girlie stuff I collect teddy bears and cabbage patch dolls.

But this has me worried, and what does derailed mean?

When it comes to something particular, like a CGC'd comic book, the unique product should have a picture of it. Rarely, a seller might (intentionally or accidentally) put a picture up of a specific comic that is not the one they're selling. They may be selling a Batman #1 CGC 9.8, but ship the same grade comic with a different certification number.

When someone "derails" a thread it means they're going off-topic. Like a train being derailed from its tracks.

[Hollywood1892]

1 minute ago, Batgirlwholaughs said:

So what does it mean to relist items by using the same pictures.

I clicked on this because I buy stuff from eBay and Amazon all the time (sorry boys,not comics) mostly clothes and girlie stuff I collect teddy bears and cabbage patch dolls.

But this has me worried, and what does derailed mean?

The OP is complaining because he ordered a CGC slabbed comic and when it came it was different then the one pictured.

This is a common practise amongst dealers when they have a high amount of the same graded comic, generally graded comics such as 9.8s don't look much different, but he is concerned because they are $500-$1000.

For me I couldn't be bothered same comic/same grade

Welcome to the boards by the way

[kav]

5 minutes ago, Batgirlwholaughs said:

But this has me worried

[Kevlar]

21 hours ago, Poekaymon said:

With Sideshow and Target or whatever, you're talking about stores that have hundreds or thousands of copies of the same item, which item does not gain or lose value for nearly imperceptible flaws.  And no one expects to get the exact item that had the picture taken--in fact, Sideshow puts right on the pic that it's a prototype, and you don't know the sideshow serial number ahead of time, either. And many of the big stores will put in a single sentence in that says something like 'Actual product not pictured' or the like.  Not remotely a fair analogy, in my opinion.  I can maybe understand in the comic book realm, if you are doing serious volume, and you are willing to issue refunds when your method of not giving them they thought they were buying backfires.  I also don't really care if they are under a hundred bucks or so.  But as I said earlier in this thread, before like 2 pages of nonsense:

1.  This seller is not high volume.  I've looked a few times and he never has more than 40-50 up at once. 

2.  These books are in the $500-1k range

3.  There aren't many of these particular books even out there, so I would be extremely surprised if he has more than 2-3 of each.

Now let's look at "mycomicshop."  At the time of this post, they have 581,390 books up.  And yet, I just looked at a couple of their identical books, and they still managed to get unique scans for each.  I really don't think this is a high bar.  

Look, call it laziness or efficiency or whatever, if you need to use a stock photo or want to reuse photos from your past auctions, and you don't think it matters, fine.  But at least disclose that fact to your customers.  Not hard to put in a single sentence to avoid any confusion.  Not sure how this is a controversial proposition. 

 

Target may be a bad example, but I don't think sideshow is. What's the difference between doing 10 vs 100? Personally I don't see any. My Comic Shop is a different animal than most CGC dealers because of their size. They either list the individual cert number or put stock image so they are covering both bases and I totally agree with you that putting "actual product not pictured" is a good idea. Like I mentioned, personally we do that...per my original post "we clearly state in the details of every listing that we normally have multiple items and that the certification number can be different and that signature color and/or placement may be different in the case of Signature Series books."

But I stand by my original notion: a brand new modern CGC 9.8 is a brand new modern CGC 9.8 regardless of cert number or what it looks like and having a book come in damaged is different.

Send me a PM with the details of this seller and I'll let you know if it's someone we personally know.

[Poekaymon]

2 hours ago, Kevlar said:

 

But I stand by my original notion: a brand new modern CGC 9.8 is a brand new modern CGC 9.8 regardless of cert number or what it looks like and having a book come in damaged is different.

 

A few different concepts going on here that I find interesting.

1.   There is no consensus about what a baseline 9.8 is.  Because 9.8 doesn't mean flawless, and because the process is subjective, it is in some cases hard to tell what defect CGC noticed and allowed in their 9.8 and what was introduced later in shipping.  I have seen numerous threads over the years (researching this issue) where veterans of these boards, such as yourself,  disagree about whether a blunted corner, for example, was there when CGC graded it a 9.8 or not.  So you can't just say "a 9.8 is a 9.8 unless it was damaged in shipping" unless you have a pre-shipping photograph with which to compare it, which only supports my point that you should probably give them the picture of the actual item.  

2.  Even assuming that there was no shipping damage, I strenuously disagree that all 9.8s are the same.  For me, the fact that it was graded a 9.8 is valuable and a great starting point--but it's only the starting point.  (I very well understand that this is not how you feel, as you have explained.  Maybe I'm even taking the minority view here.)  But allow me to explain my position:  9.8s aren't perfect, as we all know very well.  Accordingly, there are variations in the imperfections that various 9.8s have.  I spend considerable time and effort finding copies that are not only 9.8s but which have the imperfections I don't mind and don't have the imperfections I do mind.  You may find that silly and that I should simply "buy the grade," but this is not a business for me, and the next time they get traded will probably when my kids are cannibalizing my estate.  So if something has a production error that bothers me, but which did not prevent it from getting that grade, such as a messed up corner or production-related color issue or scratch or mark, I still don't want that book.  Sorry if that's unreasonable, but that's how I choose to collect, and I'd be highly surprised if I were the only one.  If someone like Sideshow makes it clear that the photograph doesn't represent the exact item I'm receiving, or if a comic seller such as yourself discloses that the image is a stock image, then it's on me to decide whether I want to risk getting something that doesn't meet my personal standards.   That's fair.  

Let's do an actual example.  I spent 4-5 months to get an SM Platinum 9.8 because there is such a wide variation in 9.8 quality on that book, due to production choices I've heard, that half or more of them look quite bad, and I have no interest in them whatsoever, even at a discount, notwithstanding the fact I agree that they are 9.8s!  In fact, I'm still looking for another one because even after passing on 20 or so 9.8s I've seen in the last 5 months, the one I settled on recently still bothers me.  ( Even still there are like 5 or more on Ebay right now and they are all even worse!)  With that in mind, say I spend another 6 months (or a year or five years) looking and someone finally posts a 9.8 that I feel is actually an improvement.  It has a CGC number which checks out.  Obviously I'm willing to pay a premium.  I buy it, but what comes is a different book, with a different number, and it is worse than both the one I already have and the one that was advertised.  If you, or that seller, or anyone else here says 'suck it up, it's still a 9.8,' then I'm sorry but we're going to have a problem.  I'm not an expert in eBay, but assuming the CGC #s didn't match and I could point out some visual differences, I am confident I would win a dispute.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Poekaymon

[Kevlar]

1 hour ago, Poekaymon said:

A few different concepts going on here that I find interesting.

1.   There is no consensus about what a baseline 9.8 is.  Because 9.8 doesn't mean flawless, and because the process is subjective, it is in some cases hard to tell what defect CGC noticed and allowed in their 9.8 and what was introduced later in shipping.  I have seen numerous threads over the years (researching this issue) where veterans of these boards, such as yourself,  disagree about whether a blunted corner, for example, was there when CGC graded it a 9.8 or not.  So you can't just say "a 9.8 is a 9.8 unless it was damaged in shipping" unless you have a pre-shipping photograph with which to compare it, which only supports my point that you should probably give them the picture of the actual item.  

2.  Even assuming that there was no shipping damage, I strenuously disagree that all 9.8s are the same.  For me, the fact that it was graded a 9.8 is valuable and a great starting point--but it's only the starting point.  (I very well understand that this is not how you feel, as you have explained.  Maybe I'm even taking the minority view here.)  But allow me to explain my position:  9.8s aren't perfect, as we all know very well.  Accordingly, there are variations in the imperfections that various 9.8s have.  I spend considerable time and effort finding copies that are not only 9.8s but which have the imperfections I don't mind and don't have the imperfections I do mind.  You may find that silly and that I should simply "buy the grade," but this is not a business for me, and the next time they get traded will probably when my kids are cannibalizing my estate.  So if something has a production error that bothers me, but which did not prevent it from getting that grade, such as a messed up corner or production-related color issue or scratch or mark, I still don't want that book.  Sorry if that's unreasonable, but that's how I choose to collect, and I'd be highly surprised if I were the only one.  If someone like Sideshow makes it clear that the photograph doesn't represent the exact item I'm receiving, or if a comic seller such as yourself discloses that the image is a stock image, then it's on me to decide whether I want to risk getting something that doesn't meet my personal standards.   That's fair.  

Let's do an actual example.  I spent 4-5 months to get an SM Platinum 9.8 because there is such a wide variation in 9.8 quality on that book, due to production choices I've heard, that half or more of them look quite bad, and I have no interest in them whatsoever, even at a discount, notwithstanding the fact I agree that they are 9.8s!  In fact, I'm still looking for another one because even after passing on 20 or so 9.8s I've seen in the last 5 months, the one I settled on recently still bothers me.  ( Even still there are like 5 or more on Ebay right now and they are all even worse!)  With that in mind, say I spend another 6 months (or a year or five years) looking and someone finally posts a 9.8 that I feel is actually an improvement.  It has a CGC number which checks out.  Obviously I'm willing to pay a premium.  I buy it, but what comes is a different book, with a different number, and it is worse than both the one I already have and the one that was advertised.  If you, or that seller, or anyone else here says 'suck it up, it's still a 9.8,' then I'm sorry but we're going to have a problem.  I'm not an expert in eBay, but assuming the CGC #s didn't match and I could point out some visual differences, I am confident I would win a dispute.

Well we can agree to disagree on a lot of points.

I will tell you that as a seller, I would block someone from future purchases if they tried to return an item because the number on the picture didn't match what was sent because we have CLEARLY in all our listings that you may not get the item in the picture since we usually have more than one copy of any given book. Nothing against that person but I just wouldn't deal with them. Unfortunately there is a level of OCD in moderns books that I (and a lot of other CGC dealers) find being way overboard.

[Poekaymon]

That's fine.  This guy doesn't even have a disclaimer, which started this whole thing.  I would never have known except that he posted one that I have sitting right here.

[Iconic1s]

15 minutes ago, Poekaymon said:

That's fine.  This guy doesn't even have a disclaimer, which started this whole thing.  I would never have known except that he posted one that I have sitting right here.

I agree with you.  If there is a cert number shown in the picture then that is the book I expect to receive in the mail.  I also wouldn't expect a picture of a CGC book I own to be used in someone's listing.  This is why I don't usually buy from sellers that have 'stock photos' in their listings, even if they say it's a stock photo.

I understand pre-orders of 9.8's and all of that but if the book is in the seller's hands then they should have the exact book shown in the listing, especially when these things we are dealing in have unique cert numbers.  If the seller has time to take your money they have time to put up a picture of the exact item that they are selling.  

But as I said before, if you want the book and have concerns, then message them and ask what's up.  Check their feedback.  If anything seems weird then just buy from someone else.

Good luck!

[kav]

I like to get down to the molecular level, with my grade requirements.

[Kevlar]

5 hours ago, Iconic1s said:

I agree with you.  If there is a cert number shown in the picture then that is the book I expect to receive in the mail.  I also wouldn't expect a picture of a CGC book I own to be used in someone's listing.  This is why I don't usually buy from sellers that have 'stock photos' in their listings, even if they say it's a stock photo.

I understand pre-orders of 9.8's and all of that but if the book is in the seller's hands then they should have the exact book shown in the listing, especially when these things we are dealing in have unique cert numbers.  If the seller has time to take your money they have time to put up a picture of the exact item that they are selling.  

But as I said before, if you want the book and have concerns, then message them and ask what's up.  Check their feedback.  If anything seems weird then just buy from someone else.

Good luck!

So if I seller has 5 copies of a book, should they update the picture each time a book sells? I've posted a listing of 5 books and all 5 sold within hours...there's no logistical way to do it and listing 5 seperate listing of 5 CGC 9.8 books that are $100 isn't worth the time when 99% of buyers don't care as long as they get a 9.8. Does the extra effort warrant the extra rewards...I say no. Again...I'm only talking about new modern 9.8s.

[Poekaymon]

1 hour ago, Kevlar said:

So if I seller has 5 copies of a book, should they update the picture each time a book sells? I've posted a listing of 5 books and all 5 sold within hours...there's no logistical way to do it and listing 5 seperate listing of 5 CGC 9.8 books that are $100 isn't worth the time when 99% of buyers don't care as long as they get a 9.8. Does the extra effort warrant the extra rewards...I say no. Again...I'm only talking about new modern 9.8s.

If I may speak for this other fellow, you are twisting the hypothetical.  The situation which led me to start this thread, and to which he was agreeing is as follows:

1. Books that are over $500.  IE, not books where the CGC grade and auction shipping is half or more of the price, as in your example.  I agree that probably no one cares in that case. (Although even then I really think it'd be nice if sellers posted the actual pic or made it clear the pic wasn't representative, but hey, I'm not going to go crazy over bargain basement books.)

2. An auction that is not "Quantity 5," or a preorder, or an obvious stock photo, or which has an obvious disclaimer telling you that the actual item is not pictured.  I wouldn't have even made this thread if any of those conditions were met.  

3. Rather, a listing for a single, non-preorder book which advertises a CGC certification number, and even has an extra pic "zooming in" on that CGC certification number.

If you meet all those conditions and have five copies to sell, yes, it would be nice if seller's posted the actual item they intend to ship.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Poekaymon

[Kevlar]

1 hour ago, Poekaymon said:

If I may speak for this other fellow, you are twisting the hypothetical.  The situation which led me to start this thread, and to which he was agreeing is as follows:

1. Books that are over $500.  IE, not books where the CGC grade and auction shipping is half or more of the price, as in your example.  I agree that probably no one cares in that case. (Although even then I really think it'd be nice if sellers posted the actual pic or made it clear the pic wasn't representative, but hey, I'm not going to go crazy over bargain basement books.)

2. An auction that is not "Quantity 5," or a preorder, or an obvious stock photo, or which has an obvious disclaimer telling you that the actual item is not pictured.  I wouldn't have even made this thread if any of those conditions were met.  

3. Rather, a listing for a single, non-preorder book which advertises a CGC certification number, and even has an extra pic "zooming in" on that CGC certification number.

If you meet all those conditions and have five copies to sell, yes, it would be nice if seller's posted the actual item they intend to ship.

Twisting hypothetical? I asked if a seller has 5 copies should they change the picture each time one sells. Here are 4 examples of mutliple listings of almost $500 books (and I've had similar ones with values over $1500):

4 copies @ $550: https://www.ebay.com/itm/352261054154

4 copies @ $400: https://www.ebay.com/itm/352374920648

6 copies @ $350: https://www.ebay.com/itm/202699257665

7 copies @ $400: https://www.ebay.com/itm/352728983501

Again...I'm not arguing that they shouldn't CLEARLY either say "stock photo" or like we say: "DISCLAIMER: Book grade is guaranteed as you are purchasing a CGC book, however picture may not be the exact book as we often have multiple copies with different certification numbers, signature placements and colors, etc."

My claim was should I update the picture each time a book sells and I won't. As I said...if I lose a sale because someone doesn't like that it's not the exact book they know they will be getting I'm ok with that. And if I decide to auction one off I'm just going to click on "change to auction" and it creates an exact copy and I start the auction at $.01. I'm not going to go back and take ANOTHER picture even thought that auction is not long a "quantity 5"....and the next time I auction another I'm using the same picture. Like I said...a modern CGC 9.8 is a modern CGC 9.8....if I feel one is an outlier because a signature is smudged or doesn't show up as easily I will list those separately but otherwise a 9.8 is a 9.8.

[Poekaymon]

  

15 minutes ago, Kevlar said:

Twisting hypothetical? I asked if a seller has 5 copies should they change the picture each time one sells. Here are 4 examples of mutliple listings of almost $500 books (and I've had similar ones with values over $1500):

4 copies @ $550: https://www.ebay.com/itm/352261054154

4 copies @ $400: https://www.ebay.com/itm/352374920648

6 copies @ $350: https://www.ebay.com/itm/202699257665

7 copies @ $400: https://www.ebay.com/itm/352728983501

Again...I'm not arguing that they shouldn't CLEARLY either say "stock photo" or like we say: "DISCLAIMER: Book grade is guaranteed as you are purchasing a CGC book, however picture may not be the exact book as we often have multiple copies with different certification numbers, signature placements and colors, etc."

My claim was should I update the picture each time a book sells and I won't. As I said...if I lose a sale because someone doesn't like that it's not the exact book they know they will be getting I'm ok with that. And if I decide to auction one off I'm just going to click on "change to auction" and it creates an exact copy and I start the auction at $.01. I'm not going to go back and take ANOTHER picture even thought that auction is not long a "quantity 5"....and the next time I auction another I'm using the same picture. Like I said...a modern CGC 9.8 is a modern CGC 9.8....if I feel one is an outlier because a signature is smudged or doesn't show up as easily I will list those separately but otherwise a 9.8 is a 9.8.

 

1.  What I meant by twisting the hypothetical is that you are arguing a scenario which I didn't even present in this thread.  And you're focusing on the dollar value, when you clearly meet the 2nd condition I listed.

2.  You say a 9.8 is a 9.8, and then you give a precise example of an outlier situation which disproves that.  

3.  To recap: 1) you have a disclaimer 2) you have Quantity X on most of your auctions 3) you list 9.8s separately if they are outlier 9.8s.  In short, none of what I've been talking about applies to you, my man.  Keep on truckin'.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Poekaymon

[Iconic1s]

9 hours ago, Poekaymon said:

If I may speak for this other fellow, you are twisting the hypothetical.  The situation which led me to start this thread, and to which he was agreeing is as follows:

1. Books that are over $500.  IE, not books where the CGC grade and auction shipping is half or more of the price, as in your example.  I agree that probably no one cares in that case. (Although even then I really think it'd be nice if sellers posted the actual pic or made it clear the pic wasn't representative, but hey, I'm not going to go crazy over bargain basement books.)

2. An auction that is not "Quantity 5," or a preorder, or an obvious stock photo, or which has an obvious disclaimer telling you that the actual item is not pictured.  I wouldn't have even made this thread if any of those conditions were met.  

3. Rather, a listing for a single, non-preorder book which advertises a CGC certification number, and even has an extra pic "zooming in" on that CGC certification number.

If you meet all those conditions and have five copies to sell, yes, it would be nice if seller's posted the actual item they intend to ship.

I agree again!

[Iconic1s]

9 hours ago, Kevlar said:

So if I seller has 5 copies of a book, should they update the picture each time a book sells? I've posted a listing of 5 books and all 5 sold within hours...there's no logistical way to do it and listing 5 seperate listing of 5 CGC 9.8 books that are $100 isn't worth the time when 99% of buyers don't care as long as they get a 9.8. Does the extra effort warrant the extra rewards...I say no. Again...I'm only talking about new modern 9.8s

If it says qty 5 then that is a completely different story, just as I said I understand pre-orders of 9.8’s. 
 

Neither of these scenarios are what the OP asked though. If it is a listing for a single book the pic should be the one I am buying, and definitely not a book I already own shown in someone else’s listing.

I also don’t agree that modern collectors are OCD. Everyone has the right to be particular about what they buy. If that is so so terribly burdensome on CGC dealers then don’t sell moderns. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Iconic1s

[Krismusic]

20 hours ago, Poekaymon said:

A few different concepts going on here that I find interesting.

1.   There is no consensus about what a baseline 9.8 is.  Because 9.8 doesn't mean flawless, and because the process is subjective, it is in some cases hard to tell what defect CGC noticed and allowed in their 9.8 and what was introduced later in shipping.  I have seen numerous threads over the years (researching this issue) where veterans of these boards, such as yourself,  disagree about whether a blunted corner, for example, was there when CGC graded it a 9.8 or not.  So you can't just say "a 9.8 is a 9.8 unless it was damaged in shipping" unless you have a pre-shipping photograph with which to compare it, which only supports my point that you should probably give them the picture of the actual item.  

2.  Even assuming that there was no shipping damage, I strenuously disagree that all 9.8s are the same.  For me, the fact that it was graded a 9.8 is valuable and a great starting point--but it's only the starting point.  (I very well understand that this is not how you feel, as you have explained.  Maybe I'm even taking the minority view here.)  But allow me to explain my position:  9.8s aren't perfect, as we all know very well.  Accordingly, there are variations in the imperfections that various 9.8s have.  I spend considerable time and effort finding copies that are not only 9.8s but which have the imperfections I don't mind and don't have the imperfections I do mind.  You may find that silly and that I should simply "buy the grade," but this is not a business for me, and the next time they get traded will probably when my kids are cannibalizing my estate.  So if something has a production error that bothers me, but which did not prevent it from getting that grade, such as a messed up corner or production-related color issue or scratch or mark, I still don't want that book.  Sorry if that's unreasonable, but that's how I choose to collect, and I'd be highly surprised if I were the only one.  If someone like Sideshow makes it clear that the photograph doesn't represent the exact item I'm receiving, or if a comic seller such as yourself discloses that the image is a stock image, then it's on me to decide whether I want to risk getting something that doesn't meet my personal standards.   That's fair.  

Let's do an actual example.  I spent 4-5 months to get an SM Platinum 9.8 because there is such a wide variation in 9.8 quality on that book, due to production choices I've heard, that half or more of them look quite bad, and I have no interest in them whatsoever, even at a discount, notwithstanding the fact I agree that they are 9.8s!  In fact, I'm still looking for another one because even after passing on 20 or so 9.8s I've seen in the last 5 months, the one I settled on recently still bothers me.  ( Even still there are like 5 or more on Ebay right now and they are all even worse!)  With that in mind, say I spend another 6 months (or a year or five years) looking and someone finally posts a 9.8 that I feel is actually an improvement.  It has a CGC number which checks out.  Obviously I'm willing to pay a premium.  I buy it, but what comes is a different book, with a different number, and it is worse than both the one I already have and the one that was advertised.  If you, or that seller, or anyone else here says 'suck it up, it's still a 9.8,' then I'm sorry but we're going to have a problem.  I'm not an expert in eBay, but assuming the CGC #s didn't match and I could point out some visual differences, I am confident I would win a dispute.

just a tip: you might want to switch from 9.8 collecting to 10's if your also willing to pay a premium as you will not see flaws on 10's.. just my 2 cents... and your more than welcome to collect the way you are.. I would just say the book wasn't the one in the picture send in for a return and let the seller know if they use stock images or similar images for the same book please put a note in the description stock images used or variations on the multiple copies exist... blah, blah etc.. I think that's the only point your trying to make, which is perfectly acceptable.

[Poekaymon]

Good tip. I considered it, but it turns out 10s are pretty rare and expensive. I’ll just stick to 9.8s that meet my exacting standards—there are plenty of those. 

[kav]

5.0 raw books are fine for me.  I buy em to read after all.

[Iconic1s]

1 hour ago, TT44ly said:

Seeing these collectors look down their nose at 9.4s as "low grade" is all the proof I need.

I agree with you here, and this is a real bummer.  But then again, if everyone sought after 9.4 moderns then they'd cost a fortune too!

Edited February 3, 2020 by Iconic1s

[William-James88]

On 2/3/2020 at 7:45 AM, Iconic1s said:

 

I also don’t agree that modern collectors are OCD. Everyone has the right to be particular about what they buy. 

People have the right to collect however they like, including being ocd about it.

It's hard to say that's not the case when you see stuff like this on these boards:

He called 9.6 a low grade.

Edited February 5, 2020 by William-James88