ASM 6 new pics (conservator's opinion added) 0

[The Lions Den]

45 minutes ago, mike devon said:

Me neither till today Harry.  Nearly impossible to discern I'd say.  For me I would expect to pay less for one with the tear but in terms of fretting or losing sleep over it it doesn't bother me at all.  The same tear on a cover would drive me completely batty and I wouldn't buy it - unless it was like an ASM 1 I guess.

My observation about the split is based on my memory of this book and the many copies of it I've seen. It stands out to me because it's the only early ASM that I recall having this particular issue. I make a mental note of flaws like this one, partly because this is the first issue of ASM that I ever remember reading, and partly because as a grader I try to remember specific characteristics about books, especially books I had when I was young. 

Anyway, I really like the book. Looks like at least a 7.0... 

Edited January 30, 2020 by The Lions Den

[mike devon]

Just now, The Lions Den said:

My observation about the split is based on my memory of this book and the many copies of it I've seen. It stands out to me because it's the only early ASM that I recall having this particular issue. I make a mental note of flaws like this one, partly because this is the first issue of ASM that I ever remember reading, and partly because as a grader I try to remember specific characteristics about books, especially books I had when I was young. 

Anyway, I really like the book. Let me know if you decide to sell it... 

Cheers LD.  I am indeed going to sell it - probably after a clean and press.  Bearing in mind I paid a lot for it what would you be looking at to buy it..?

[William-James88]

5 hours ago, mike devon said:

How to tell..?  Looks like factory issue but who knows..?  All I can go on is what I can see and the book overall has practically zero normal handling wear - some dirt and mild stacking roll are the only real evidence it was ever owned and read.  Very tight staples.

How is it that some are grading this 6.5 as is and some 4.0..?  That is an enormous difference.

It is a huge difference because detached staples are one of those big defects that have certain grades attributed to them depending on what is the cause of it not being attached, when selling a book raw.

Here is the actual grading guide, I bolded the bit about where a detached staple is acceptable (4.0). Of course, now that we know the centrefold is secure, then you don't have to worry about that anymore, so that's good. Just wanted to explain where the discrepancy was coming from. You'll also see which grade allows for minor soiling/ staining. A press/clean is a good idea, it could solidify you getting a 7.0 and maybe even give you a 7.5. Good luck and all the best!

 

10.0 GEM MINT (GM):  Back to Top
An exceptional example of a given book - the best ever seen. Only the slightest bindery or printing defects are allowed. Cover is flat with no surface wear. Inks are bright with high reflectivity. Corners are cut square and sharp. Spine is tight and flat. Staples must be original, centered and clean with no rust. Paper is white, supple and fresh. No interior autographs or owner signatures.

 

9.9 MINT (MT):  Back to Top
Near perfect in every way. Only subtle bindery or printing defects are allowed. Cover is flat with no surface wear. Inks are bright with high reflectivity and minimal fading. Corners are cut square and sharp. Small, inconspicuous, lightly penciled, stamped or inked arrival dates are acceptable as long as they are in an unobtrusive location. Spine is tight and flat. Staples must be original, generally centered and clean with no rust. Paper is white, supple and fresh.

9.8 NEAR MINT/MINT (NM/MT):  Back to Top
Nearly perfect in every way with only minor imperfections that keep it from the next higher grade. Only subtle bindery or printing defects are allowed. Cover is flat with no surface wear. Inks are bright with high reflectivity and minimal fading. Corners are cut square and sharp. Small, inconspicuous, lightly penciled, stamped or inked arrival dates are acceptable as long as they are in an unobtrusive location. Spine is tight and flat. Staples must be original, generally centered and clean with no rust. Paper is white, supple and fresh. Only the slightest interior tears are allowed.

9.6 NEAR MINT+ (NM+):  Back to Top
Nearly perfect with a minor additional virtue or virtues that raise it from Near Mint. Only subtle bindery or printing defects are allowed. No bindery tears are allowed, although on Golden Age books bindery tears of up to 1/8" have been noted. Cover is flat with no surface wear. Inks are bright with high reflectivity and a minimum of fading. One corner may be almost imperceptibly blunted, but still almost sharp and cut square. Almost imperceptible indentations are permissible, but no creases, bends, or color break. Small, inconspicuous, lightly penciled, stamped or inked arrival dates are acceptable as long as they are in an unobtrusive location. Spine is tight and flat. Staples must be original, generally centered, with only the slightest discoloration. Paper is off-white, supple and fresh. Only the slightest interior tears are allowed.

9.4 NEAR MINT (NM):  Back to Top
Nearly perfect with only minor imperfections that keep it from the next higher grade. Subtle bindery/printing defects are allowed. Bindery tears must be less than 1/16" on Silver Age and later books, although on Golden Age books bindery tears of up to 1/4" have been noted. Cover is flat with no surface wear. Inks are bright with high reflectivity and a minimum of fading. Corners are cut square and sharp with ever-so-slight blunting permitted. A 1/16" bend is permitted with no color break. Small, inconspicuous, lightly penciled, stamped or inked arrival dates are acceptable as long as they are in an unobtrusive location. Slight foxing. Spine is tight and flat. Staples are generally centered; may have slight discoloration. Almost no stress lines. Paper is off-white to cream, supple and fresh. Slight interior tears are allowed.

9.2 NEAR MINT- (NM-):  Back to Top
Nearly perfect with only a minor additional defect or defects that keep it from Near Mint. A limited number of minor bindery/printing defects are allowed. Cover is flat with no surface wear. Inks are bright with only the slightest dimming of reflectivity. Corners are cut square and sharp with ever-so-slight blunting permitted. A 1/16-1/8" bend is permitted with no color break. Small, inconspicuous, lightly penciled, stamped or inked arrival dates are acceptable as long as they are in an unobtrusive location. Slight foxing. Spine is tight and flat. Staples may show some discoloration. Almost no stress lines. Paper is off-white to cream, supple and fresh. Slight interior tears are allowed.

9.0 VERY FINE/NEAR MINT (VF/NM):  Back to Top
Nearly perfect with outstanding eye appeal. A limited number of bindery/printing defects are allowed. Cover is almost flat with almost imperceptible wear. Inks are bright with slightly diminished reflectivity. An 1/8" bend is allowed if color is not broken. Corners are cut square and sharp with ever-so-slight blunting permitted but no creases. Several lightly penciled, stamped or inked arrival dates are acceptable. Very minor foxing. Spine is tight and flat. Staples may show some discoloration. Only the slightest staple tears are allowed. A very minor accumulation of stress lines may be present if they are nearly imperceptible. Paper is off-white to cream and supple. Very minor interior tears may be present.

8.5 VERY FINE+ (VF+):  Back to Top
Fits the criteria for Very Fine but with an additional virtue or small accumulation of virtues that improves the book's appearance by a perceptible amount.

8.0 VERY FINE (VF):  Back to Top
An excellent copy with outstanding eye appeal. A limited accumulation of minor bindery/printing defects is allowed. Cover is relatively flat with minimal surface wear beginning to show, possibly including some minute wear at corners. Inks are generally bright with moderate to high reflectivity. An unnoticeable 1/4" crease is acceptable if color is not broken. Stamped or inked arrival dates may be present. Minor foxing. Spine is almost completely flat with a possible minor color break. Staples may show some discoloration. Very slight staple tears and a few almost insignificant stress lines may be present. Paper is cream to tan and supple. Centerfold is mostly secure. Minor interior tears at the margin may be present.

7.5 VERY FINE- (VF-):  Back to Top
Fits the criteria for Very Fine but with an additional defect or small accumulation of defects that detracts from the book's appearance by a perceptible amount.

7.0 FINE/VERY FINE (FN/VF):  Back to Top
An above-average copy that shows minor wear but is still relatively flat and clean with outstanding eye appeal. A small accumulation of minor bindery/printing defects is allowed. Minor cover wear beginning to show, possibly including minor creases. Corners may be blunted. Inks are generally bright with a moderate reduction in reflectivity. Stamped or inked arrival dates may be present. Minor foxing. The slightest spine roll may be present, as well as a possible moderate color break. Staples may show some discoloration. Slight staple tears and a small accumulation of light stress lines may be present. Slight rust migration. Paper is cream to tan. Centerfold is mostly secure. Minor interior tears at the margin may be present.

6.5 FINE+ (FN+):  Back to Top
Fits the criteria for Fine but with an additional virtue or small accumulation of virtues that improves the book's appearance by a perceptible amount.

6.0 FINE (FN):  Back to Top
An above-average copy that shows minor wear but is still relatively flat and clean with no significant creasing or other serious defects. Some accumulation of minor bindery/printing defects is allowed. Minor cover wear apparent, with minor to moderate creases. Inks show a significant reduction in reflectivity. Blunted corners are more common, as is minor staining, soiling, discoloration, and/or foxing. Stamped or inked arrival dates may be present. A minor spine roll is allowed. There can also be a 1/4" spine split or severe color break. Staples may show minor discoloration. Minor staple tears and a few slight stress lines may be present, as well as minor rust migration. Paper is tan to brown and fairly supple with no signs of brittleness. Minor interior tears at the margin may be present. Centerfold may be loose.

5.5 FINE- (FN-):  Back to Top
Fits the criteria for Fine but with an additional defect or small accumulation of defects that detracts from the book's appearance by a perceptible amount.

5.0 VERY GOOD/FINE (VG/FN):  Back to Top
An above-average but well used comic book. An accumulation of bindery/printing defects is allowed. Minor to moderate cover wear apparent, with minor to moderate creases and/or dimples. Inks have moderate to low reflectivity. Blunted corners are increasingly common, as is minor to moderate staining, discoloration, and/or foxing. Stamped or inked arrival dates may be present. A minor to moderate spine roll is allowed. A spine split of up to 1/2" may be present. Staples may show minor discoloration. Minor staple tears and minor stress lines may also be present, as well as minor rust migration. Paper is tan to brown with no signs of brittleness. Centerfold may be loose. Minor interior tears may also be present.

4.5 VERY GOOD+ (VG):  Back to Top
Fits the criteria for Very Good but with an additional virtue or small accumulation of virtues that improves the book's appearance by a perceptible amount.

4.0 VERY GOOD (VG):  Back to Top
The average used comic book. Cover shows moderate to significant wear, and may be loose but not completely detached. Cover reflectivity is low. Can have moderate creases or dimples. Corners may be blunted. Store stamps, name stamps, arrival dates, initials, etc. have no effect on this grade. Some discoloration, fading, foxing, and even minor soiling is allowed. As much as a 1/4" triangle can be missing out of the corner or edge; a missing 1/8" square is also acceptable. Only minor unobtrusive tape and other amateur repair allowed on otherwise high grade copies. Moderate spine roll may be present and/or a 1" spine split. Staples may be discolored. Minor to moderate staple tears and stress lines may be present, as well as some rust migration. Paper is brown but not brittle. Minor to moderate interior tears may be present. Centerfold may be loose or detached at one staple.

3.5 VERY GOOD- (VG-):  Back to Top
Fits the criteria for Very Good but with an additional defect or small accumulation of defects that detracts from the book's appearance by a perceptible amount.

3.0 GOOD/VERY GOOD (GD/VG):  Back to Top
A used comic book showing some substantial wear. Cover shows significant wear, and may be loose or even detached at one staple. Cover reflectivity is very low. Can have a book-length crease and/or dimples. Corners may be blunted or even rounded. Discoloration, fading, foxing, and even minor to moderate soiling is allowed. A triangle from 1/4" to 1/2" can be missing out of the corner or edge; a missing 1/8" to 1/4" square is also acceptable. Tape and other amateur repair may be present. Moderate spine roll likely. May have a spine split of anywhere from 1" to 1-1/2". Staples may be rusted or replaced. Minor to moderate staple tears and moderate stress lines may be present, as well as some rust migration. Paper is brown but not brittle. Centerfold may be loose or detached at one staple. Minor to moderate interior tears may be present.

2.5 GOOD+ (GD+):  Back to Top
Fits the criteria for Good but with an additional virtue or small accumulation of virtues that improves the book's appearance by a perceptible amount.

2.0 GOOD (GD):  Back to Top
Shows substantial wear; often considered a "reading copy." Cover shows significant wear and may even be detached. Cover reflectivity is low and in some cases completely absent. Book-length creases and dimples may be present. Rounded corners are more common. Moderate soiling, staining, discoloration and foxing may be present. The largest piece allowed missing from the front or back cover is usually a 1/2" triangle or a 1/4" square, although some Silver Age books such as 1960s Marvels have had the price corner box clipped from the top left front cover and may be considered Good if they would otherwise have graded higher. Tape and other forms of amateur repair are common in Silver Age and older books. Spine roll is likely. May have up to a 2" spine split. Staples may be degraded, replaced or missing. Moderate staple tears and stress lines may be present, as well as rust migration. Paper is brown but not brittle. Centerfold may be loose or detached. Moderate interior tears may be present.

1.8 GOOD- (GD-):  Back to Top
Fits the criteria for Good but with an additional defect or small accumulation of defects that detracts from the book's appearance by a perceptible amount.

1.5 FAIR/GOOD (FR/GD):  Back to Top
Shows substantial to heavy wear. Books in this grade are commonly creased, scuffed, abraded, soiled, and possibly unattractive, but still generally readable. Cover shows considerable wear and may be detached. Almost no cover reflectivity remaining. Book-length creases, tears and folds may be present. Rounded corners are increasingly common. Soiling, staining, discoloration and foxing is generally present. Up to 1/10 of the back cover may be missing. Tape and other forms of amateur repair are increasingly common in Silver Age and older books. Spine roll is common. May have a spine split between 2" and 2/3 the length of the book. Staples may be degraded, replaced or missing. Staple tears and stress lines are common, as well as rust migration. Paper is brown and may show brittleness around the edges. Acidic odor may be present. Centerfold may be loose or detached. Interior tears are common.

1.0 FAIR (FR):  Back to Top
Shows heavy wear. Some collectors consider this the lowest collectible grade because comic books in lesser condition are usually incomplete and/or brittle. Cover may be detached, and inks have lost all reflectivity. Creases, tears and/or folds are prevalent. Corners are commonly rounded or absent. Soiling and staining is present. Books in this condition generally have all pages and most of the covers, although there may be up to 1/4 of the front cover missing or no back cover, but not both. Tape and other forms of amateur repair are more common. Spine roll is more common; spine split can extend up to 2/3 the length of the book. Staples may be missing or show rust and discoloration. An accumulation of staple tears and stress lines may be present, as well as rust migration. Paper is brown and may show brittleness around the edges but not in the central portion of the pages. Acidic odor may be present. Accumulation of interior tears. Chunks may be missing. The centerfold may be missing if readability is generally preserved. Coupons may be cut.

0.5 POOR (PR):  Back to Top
Sufficiently degraded to the point where there is little or no collector value; easily identified by a complete absence of eye appeal. Brittle almost to the point of turning to dust with a touch, and usually incomplete. Extreme fading may render the cover almost indiscernible. May have extremely severe stains, mildew or heavy cover abrasion to the point that some cover inks are indistinct/absent. Covers may be detached with large chunks missing. Can have extremely ragged edges and extensive creasing. Corners are rounded or virtually absent. Covers may have been defaced with paints, varnishes, glues, oil, indelible markers or dyes, and may have suffered heavy water damage. Can also have extensive amateur repairs such as laminated covers. Extreme spine roll present; can have extremely ragged spines or a complete, book-length split. Staples can be missing or show extreme rust and discoloration. Extensive staple tears and stress lines may be present, as well as extreme rust migration. Paper exhibits moderate to severe brittleness (where the comic book literally falls apart when examined). Extreme acidic odor may be present. Extensive interior tears. Multiple pages, including the centerfold, may be missing that affect readability. Coupons may be cut.

Edited January 30, 2020 by William-James88

[The Lions Den]

3 hours ago, Harry Lime said:

I've not heard of this production issue before on any comics but I'm far from the most knowledgable boardie, sorry.

But you've got a great avatar...  

[mike devon]

William cheers.

[William-James88]

5 minutes ago, mike devon said:

William cheers.

No problem, man, all the best!

[mike devon]

Update - I've sent the book for a clean and press and the chap thinks it may get a 5.0 from CGC - maybe a 6.0 on a good day as the internal split is over 5cm.  He's deducting a whole 1.0 for the split.

Be interested to see what you guys think.  It has very mild issues - beside the split - but is a lovely book.  Value wise a 5.5 say would 'only' be about $900 and I think that seems low for the overall condition..?

I would have thought easy FN/FN+ i.e. 6 or 6.5 but then its my book so I'm biased

Edited February 2, 2020 by mike devon
oops

[William-James88]

On 2/2/2020 at 6:59 AM, mike devon said:

Update - I've sent the book for a clean and press and the chap thinks it may get a 5.0 from CGC - maybe a 6.0 on a good day as the internal split is over 5cm.  He's deducting a whole 1.0 for the split.

Be interested to see what you guys think.  It has very mild issues - beside the split - but is a lovely book.  Value wise a 5.5 say would 'only' be about $900 and I think that seems low for the overall condition..?

I would have thought easy FN/FN+ i.e. 6 or 6.5 but then its my book so I'm biased

Best thing to do at this point would be to send to CGC and have the grade set in stone.

Was the dirt/soiling removed after your clean?

Also, if he is deducting 1.0, does that mean he thinks it would be a 6.0 withput the split?

[mike devon]

7 hours ago, William-James88 said:

Best thing to do at this point would be to send to CGC and have the grade set in stone.

Was the dirt/soiling removed after your clean?

Also, if he is deducting 1.0, does that mean he thinks it would be a 6.0 withput the split?

Hi - its still with him so I haven't seen the result yet.  I think he means that after clean and press its about a 6.5 so with the split would go down to 6.0 or even 5.0.

Having handled the book I'd have given it a 7.0 as it was and after clean maybe 7.5  then subtract for the split so maybe ending up a 7.0.

I think he's grading a bit low but he does loads of these.

I've done some research and seen that books with 1 staple off on the centre spread have graded very high and some low.  As with all this stuff it seems quite inconsistent.
 

[Point Five]

I agree with your guess of 6.0/6.5 range, with a non-zero chance of substantially higher if CGC deems the interior tear to be a production issue. Too bad about the tear but it does look great!

 

[William-James88]

4 hours ago, mike devon said:

I think he's grading a bit low but he does loads of these.

I've done some research and seen that books with 1 staple off on the centre spread have graded very high and some low.  As with all this stuff it seems quite inconsistent.
 

I would trust him then. Looking at the grading guide I posted above, he is right for a raw book, on a technical basis. You'll notice that the only grade where a non margin tear inside the comic is allowed is a 5.0. So technically, if someone sold a raw book on e-bay and said this was a 7.0 and didn't disclose the tear inside, then you could return it saying the grade stated does not allow for a tear (I have done so before for other undisclosed defects like chips and stains only found on the back cover, which the seller did not show).

Of course, CGC could always choose to bump it up, I personally feel a 6.0 would be a fair grade for this as is, but it's at their discretion. They could be very strict with the guidelines listed above (as they are with stains) and stick with a 5.0. You'd really have to send it in to find out.

The staple off on the center spread is a question I can answer (though , I think in your case, both staples are secure right?).

Check the guidelines above and you will see that it really depends on whether the staple is detached naturally (aka loose) or if it's actually detached by wear (the part I put in bold). CGC does not distinguish between the two on their notes on the slab, but the defects are different and can have huge differences in grade. If the staple is loose naturally, it can still be a nice grade. But if it's detached due to wear and tear at one staple, then you end up with a 4.0, and if it's been ripped out at both staples, then you sink even lower to 2.0. 

So the reason for it being not secure makes a big difference and the grades can range from 2.0-7.0 with the main defect being linked to staples.

 

Word of advice though, if you want to sell this book raw then just disclose everything as you did in your post. I would not say a definite grade, just say what it looks like and let the buyer judge for themselves if they feel the book is worth the price you list it as. 

[mike devon]

34 minutes ago, Point Five said:

I agree with your guess of 6.0/6.5 range, with a non-zero chance of substantially higher if CGC deems the interior tear to be a production issue. Too bad about the tear but it does look great!

 

OK so just to be clear 6.0 to 6.5 after clean and press and taking the tear/split into account..?

Its muddy water though - I've seen reports of high grade books with 1 staple off centre spread.  I think interior faults are much more variable according to the potential buyer..?  They don't bother me anywhere near as much as cover issues but I know  I am in the minority there.

[mike devon]

35 minutes ago, William-James88 said:

I would trust him then. Looking at the grading guide I posted above, he is right for a raw book, on a technical basis. You'll notice that the only grade where a non margin tear inside the comic is allowed is a 5.0. So technically, if someone sold a raw book on e-bay and said this was a 7.0 and didn't disclose the tear inside, then you could return it saying the grade stated does not allow for a tear (I have done so before for other undisclosed defects like chips and stains only found on the back cover, which the seller did not show).

Of course, CGC could always choose to bump it up, I personally feel a 6.0 would be a fair grade for this as is, but it's at their discretion. They could be very strict with the guidelines listed above (as they are with stains) and stick with a 5.0. You'd really have to send it in to find out.

The staple off on the center spread is a question I can answer (though , I think in your case, both staples are secure right?).

Check the guidelines above and you will see that it really depends on whether the staple is detached naturally (aka loose) or if it's actually detached by wear (the part I put in bold). CGC does not distinguish between the two on their notes on the slab, but the defects are different and can have huge differences in grade. If the staple is loose naturally, it can still be a nice grade. But if it's detached due to wear and tear at one staple, then you end up with a 4.0, and if it's been ripped out at both staples, then you sink even lower to 2.0. 

So the reason for it being not secure makes a big difference and the grades can range from 2.0-7.0 with the main defect being linked to staples.

 

Word of advice though, if you want to sell this book raw then just disclose everything as you did in your post. I would not say a definite grade, just say what it looks like and let the buyer judge for themselves if they feel the book is worth the price you list it as. 

Oh I'd always disclose EVERYTHING when selling.  I think with this one its superb in the hand and it will go to a buyer who wants a 7.5 to 8.00 looking book in the hand but on closer inspection has a few faults.

Its very obviously not restored or trimmed.

[William-James88]

14 minutes ago, mike devon said:

Oh I'd always disclose EVERYTHING when selling.  I think with this one its superb in the hand and it will go to a buyer who wants a 7.5 to 8.00 looking book in the hand but on closer inspection has a few faults.

Its very obviously not restored or trimmed.

Yeah, for sure it would be the easiest midgrade book to sell since it looks to be a higher grade than it is.

[Point Five]

20 minutes ago, mike devon said:

OK so just to be clear 6.0 to 6.5 after clean and press and taking the tear/split into account..?

Yes, with all that. I don't see a glaring reason to press and clean it from the scans, so I don't see the grade changing much.

 

[mike devon]

1 minute ago, Point Five said:

Yes, with all that. I don't see a glaring reason to press and clean it from the scans, so I don't see the grade changing much.

 

It has/had a gentle spine stacking roll and some dirt/sweat on the back which my chap thinks will clean up.  I realise this may not mechanically up the grade once sorted but the eye candy will certainly go up