New CGC collector with a few questions about some purchases and damage 3 3

[BmoGreen]

Recently decided to start up a CGC collection after years away from the comic collecting hobby. I had switched to reading trade paperbacks In the late 90's and kind of just gave collecting "real" comics up when I made this switch. I jumped in head first and decided I was going to complete a high grade run of Uncanny X-Men. I recently bought some nice 9.8's to start my new collection. 

The first book I got was a 9.8 copy of Mr. Sinisters 1st appearance, xmen 221. Signed by Claremont and Silvestri! I opened it up out of a very well packed priority mail box. And immediately my eye shoots to a tear on the corner of the book. I could not believe my eyes. Not a great introduction to graded comics. The tear is on the front cover, but every page from front to back is dinged and back cover has a smaller tear. as you can see from my second photo. 

Am I wrong to want to send this back? Would this flaw fall under what is acceptable for a 9.8? (I can't believe it is, but I guess I should ask since this is my first graded book). The rest of the book does look flawless. 

This was not evident from the photos on ebay, so I decided no biggie I will just send it back for a full refund. 

The next day I got a copy of a not so spectacular book, issue 159, no first appearances or anything, just a solid 9.8 in the series I am trying to make a run of. This book I was happy to see no tears at least, but I could not believe far the corners of the cover were from the actual book. Then I got a few more books in the mail, and most seemed to have this "sagging" issue. 

Now I am second guessing my decision to start collecting CGC books. I would be unhappy with any of these if I got them in a bag and board, way more so than a simple spine pressure crease. Is this just a flaw in CGC cases? Did all 5 of the highly rated sellers I bought from all store the comics improperly, they all certainly seemed like they were shipped exceedingly carefully? Is this just expected and accepted as standard damage that is done by having a comic in a slab?? 

Is the only safe way to get a graded comic to buy it in person then store it flat for eternity? 

I really want to keep buying graded books, but wow this first week was just negative feeling after negative feeling

[Avi]

The first defect might have happened after grading while the book was being encapsulated. The second is not really a issue.

Either way it sounds like you are looking for 10.0s and not 9.8s

[theCapraAegagrus]

I would consider returning the CGC SS comic. However, if you are satisfied with its overall appearance and the price you paid, why not keep it? That's your prerogative.

The second book is a non-problem.

[Krismusic]

second book is fine for a 9.8 miswrap.. it sounds like you want the 10 Mint grades.. best of luck hunting those... 9.8s can have a production defect the first one though not sure what happened to that it might have been a production defect so that's why its still a 9.8.

also note 10's usually have a very high price tag associated with them. 

[BmoGreen]

5 hours ago, Avi said:

The first defect might have happened after grading while the book was being encapsulated. The second is not really a issue.

Either way it sounds like you are looking for 10.0s and not 9.8s

I think I am looking for 9.8s not 10s. I have a hard time believing this book woukd have been graded a 10 without this dinged corner.

Your first paragraph was helpful though. I am trying to get a feel for hobby expectations are these days. I guess I am surprised they are this low but not necessarily disappointed. Although with the SS book I bet you are right about damage after grading and before encapsulation.

[Avi]

7 minutes ago, BmoGreen said:

I think I am looking for 9.8s not 10s. I have a hard time believing this book woukd have been graded a 10 without this dinged corner.

Your first paragraph was helpful though. I am trying to get a feel for hobby expectations are these days. I guess I am surprised they are this low but not necessarily disappointed. Although with the SS book I bet you are right about damage after grading and before encapsulation.

What I was implying is that your expectations sound unrealistic for the grade you are looking for. Clearly you feel like your standards are higher than the rest of us =(

A brief CGC grading scale. https://www.cgccomics.com/comic-grading/grading-scale/ More in depth ones can be found online and might give you more insight into the standards and expectations.

[BmoGreen]

On 2/3/2020 at 3:49 PM, Avi said:

What I was implying is that your expectations sound unrealistic for the grade you are looking for. Clearly you feel like your standards are higher than the rest of us =(

A brief CGC grading scale. https://www.cgccomics.com/comic-grading/grading-scale/ More in depth ones can be found online and might give you more insight into the standards and expectations.

From the Link you posted: "9.8 - A nearly perfect collectible with negligible handling or manufacturing defects." I would hardly call a corner sliced nearly off and a dent to every page in the book negligible. Going by your link I am going to assume someone made a mistake on that book. The other book, I am inclined to listen to you and the choir here seeing how I have seen similar on a bunch of books now.

I really am trying to learn here,  I find it hard to believe you or anyone else on this forum would receive the book with the dented and chopped corner and not be disappointed. 

[William-James88]

The second one is a normal 9.8. So if you don't find it nice enough then as others have said, you might look into collecting 9.9 or 10.

 

The first one is not (or more likely no longer) a 9.8. You could return it, but only mention that you could not see that tear in the pics. Saying it's not a 9.8 may not work in your favor if paypal reviews the case. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by William-James88

[BmoGreen]

23 minutes ago, William-James88 said:

The second one is a normal 9.8. So if you don't find it nice enough then as others have said, you might look into collecting 9.9 or 10.

 

The first one is not (or more likely no longer) a 9.8. You could return it, but only mention that you could not see that tear in the pics. Saying it's not a 9.8 may not work in your favor if paypal reviews the case. 

Fair enough. Like i have said I am willing to adjust expectations. Just learning here.

The graded comic world is completely different from the graded card world. From what I gather the cover not being square with the book would be a downgrade on a more recent book, am I correct on that? In the graded card world anything that would downgrade a new card would downgrade an old card equally.

I have made my peace with that difference. It made me feel bad about my buys at first, as my expectations were not tempered. I am willing to accept "contemporary community standards" on this and have quickly adjusted expectations. Buying 10's is obviously out of the question as they just dont exist. 

Thanks for the advice on the return. I hate to do it, the seller is looks stellar from their feedback, but they should have disclosed.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Seller here! 

I'm the seller of the X-Men #221. The chip in the upper right corner is a bindery chip, ultra common on this era of books (good luck trying to find a Direct X-Factor #6 or Web of Spiderman #31 without one.)

The book wasn't damaged after grading; it was graded like that. And the interior pages aren't dented; the bindery "chipping" occurs on every page (because that's how this book was cut.)

As for disclosing, it *was* disclosed: in the grade, which is 9.8 (not 10.) 9.8s are not perfect. There was no subterfuge involved; my scanner sucks, but it's all I have that can scan slabs. I was actually sad to sell it, because, of the 3 I had left, that was the nicest one. I do not mind bindery chips at all, because they are such a typical feature of books from this era. 

That said, I don't want any buyer of mine to be at all unhappy with anything they purchased, so I always offer returns on everything I sell. In fact, before I was aware of this thread, I advised the buyer (tonight, after a "not as described" dispute was opened, which was the first I heard there was a problem) to come to the CGC board to get other opinions. As I told the buyer in the case messages, it's perfectly ok to not agree with CGC's grade, and if they didn't like it, they should absolutely return it. 

I highly recommend, to all buyers, that if a certain defect bothers you, and you can't see something, to always ask before buying for further pictures. And if a seller doesn't provide them...pass. It's an unrealistic expectation to expect sellers to disclose flaws that are typical for a grade...that's what we pay CGC to do.

Here's my original picture:

Here's a picture the buyer provided (note bindery chip):

Here are pictures of other books with bindery chips:

(bottom right corner)

 

("miscut" along top edge)

(bottom right corner)

(this one's a bit extreme, as the corner is cockeyed, but it was there when it was graded.)

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 2/1/2020 at 8:18 PM, BmoGreen said:

I recently bought some nice 9.8's to start my new collection. 

I'm very sorry that your first experience with CGC grade books was not a completely satisfactory one for you, regardless of why, and I hope the information you've gotten in this thread helps you adjust your expectations about graded books going forward. 

Here's a journal entry you might enjoy about my own experience with high grade X-Men:

 

[Avi]

On 2/4/2020 at 6:54 PM, BmoGreen said:

From the Link you posted: "9.8 - A nearly perfect collectible with negligible handling or manufacturing defects." I would hardly call a corner sliced nearly off and a dent to every page in the book negligible. Going by your link I am going to assume someone made a mistake on that book. The other book, I am inclined to listen to you and the choir here seeing how I have seen similar on a bunch of books now.

I really am trying to learn here,  I find it hard to believe you or anyone else on this forum would receive the book with the dented and chopped corner and not be disappointed. 

I stand corrected about the defect happening before getting encased. Like RMA (the seller above) mentioned. You just WONT an issue with it.

Some books have damage that is considered acceptable. I think ASM 800 that came out last year had a similar issue where a specific variant had a printing defect where the corner was split. These got 9.8s as it was a printing defect.

On 2/4/2020 at 7:45 PM, BmoGreen said:

From what I gather the cover not being square with the book would be a downgrade on a more recent book, am I correct on that?

Not true, a miss aligned cover might be less desirable to a buyer but wouldnt automatically get to downgraded.

Having lofty expectations is fine, you just need to be realistic about if you will ever be happy with what you buy in that case.

[robert j payne]

As someone I see a lot in these forums . . . . collected earlier (I'm 59 now) . . . bought some trades . . . . got the "bug" again . . . . . .

I am reading everything on this site I can as I am trying to decide where to start over again.  One of the biggest decisions that I am making first is whether to get a few, awesome covers that I like, in CGC books (ASM is my favorite), or buy thing "raw" and just read them (not interested in getting through runs again, etc. - just want to have some things to display the covers).  I have purchased the Amazing Spider-Man Omnibus 1 which is taking care of the AF15, the ASM 1-38 (and a couple more issues), so I have those I can read.  Was thinking about searching for some of the covers I like in ASM up to about 300 ---- then I can get into something else.  I also like some of the Detective Comics (Carmen Infantino, Neal Adams), so could venture off that way again.

This is my first post in the forum, so don't really have a question unless others want to share experiences, same story, how they decided, etc.

Just going to enjoy reading from everyone in these chat boards!

[BmoGreen]

12 hours ago, Avi said:

I stand corrected about the defect happening before getting encased. Like RMA (the seller above) mentioned. You just WONT an issue with it.

 

Not understanding the "you just WONT an issue with it." does "WONT" stand for something I dont understand?

[BmoGreen]

RMA has really put me in a hard place here. Based on his amazing feedback on ebay and with his 56000 posts on this forum he is obviously an expert and its hard for me to believe that I am in the right here requesting that and he is in the wrong given that the book I bought from him was the first CGC book I ever purchased.  However, after posting this on various forums around the web, quite a few people think this flaw was a little out of the ordinary at best. RMA's defense is that the book is a 9.8 and he doesn't describe books because that is what he pays CGC to do, which I suppose is understandable. 

In my message to RMA one ebay I asked that he swap this book for one of his other 9.8 SS of the same book, shipping as his expense because he did not disclose the abnormal damage and his scan or photo had no hint to its existence. I offered to make a purchase from him to make shipping back basically free for him (since as a seller I know adding a second book is not going to significantly raise the cost of shipping). I felt I was being reasonable by basically offering to split the cost of the problem with my book purchase. I had already posted here and a few other forums asking about this and did not ask for the return till multiple people in the groups said this book was kinda funky.

Seeing RMA's rep in here and his feedback on ebay and his book selection, I hate to go through with the claim over what is basically 15$ worth of shipping and get blacklisted by RMA, who I think I would like to purchase future books from given the quality of his store. I also hate the idea that I dropped a ton of cash on a book which I would not have bought if he simply would have disclosed this out of the ordinary damage for the grade. I would have simply bought one of his other copies that I assume don't have a giant dent on the corner. 

As someone who has made my living and my two full time employees from online sales for the past dozen years, I can't imagine ever listing a book like this without disclosure, but then again, I have never dealt in the graded comic field before. 

Oh well.... thanks for the thoughts on the post everyone.

Edited February 7, 2020 by BmoGreen
more concise

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

RMA has really put me in a hard place here. 

First off, let me reiterate that I am very, very sorry that you're not happy with your purchase. I know how frustrating it can be to receive something and not be satisfied with it, regardless of the reason why. As I said previously, I'm more than happy to accept a return on the book. That said, if I may, I'd like to address a few things in your response here:

3 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

Based on his amazing feedback on ebay and with his 56000 posts on this forum he is obviously an expert and its hard for me to believe that I am in the right here requesting that and he is in the wrong given that the book I bought from him was the first CGC book I ever purchased. 

I completely agree, and I thank you for the kind words.

3 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

However, after posting this on various forums around the web, quite a few people think this flaw was a little out of the ordinary at best.

That is a little concerning to me. I hope, in these other places, you've left out the identifying markers of the issue, or haven't mentioned my name. If you have, would you mind letting me know where, so I may present my side of the story? You know, in the interest of fairness and all.

That said...I am also concerned about your presentation. When you blow up and zoom in on flaws, they are magnified, and look much worse than they actually are in hand. That's why I included the picture from the listing...to show the flaw in its proper context (which you CAN see, but barely...because of its small size.)

Keep in mind, too, who you're getting the feedback from, if you're interested in legitimate opinions, rather than feedback from people who, like you, are also unfamiliar with comic books and how they are graded. Although my opinion is obviously biased, the flaw is perfectly ordinary and typical for a grade of 9.8.

3 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

RMA's defense is that the book is a 9.8 and he doesn't describe books because that is what he pays CGC to do, which I suppose is understandable. 

If I may, a slight correction here. What I said was that I don't describe flaws that are typical for a grade, and that it's an unrealistic expectation to expect sellers to do so. Bit of a difference there. Atypical flaws I will certainly point out, but books that are damaged post-slabbing don't get listed. As you can see, this book wasn't damaged post-slabbing, since it's in the "wedge" type inner well that "pinches" on all four sides...no hard edge to bump into.

3 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

In my message to RMA one ebay I asked that he swap this book for one of his other 9.8 SS of the same book, shipping as his expense because he did not disclose the abnormal damage and his scan or photo had no hint to its existence. 

Ahhhh...that's not...quite...true. Here, I'll post the scan from my listing:

See that little tiny notch that the tip of the black arrow is pointing to? That's the bindery chip (seen in proper perspective) on the back cover. And see that little "white" fuzziness that the white arrow is pointing to? That's the white of the paper underneath, and you can barely see that the blue extends a fraction of an inch above the rest.

Here it is from your super zoomed in photo:

 

That's your telltale clue. So you can see, in the scan, it IS visible...it's just so small, and with you being completely new to slabs, I get why it would be very difficult to see. You can't see it in the scan because, in real life, it's pretty small...less than 1/16" of an inch on the longest side. You work with thousands of slabs, you develop a feel for how they look in a scan, and what's a flaw vs. what's an artifact. It takes time and experience, but it's certainly worthwhile!

3 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

I offered to make a purchase from him to make shipping back basically free for him (since as a seller I know adding a second book is not going to significantly raise the cost of shipping). I felt I was being reasonable by basically offering to split the cost of the problem with my book purchase.

The problem here is two-fold: first, there's just no way for me to know if the "replacement book" would also not meet your standards, and sending slabs out for approval gets very spendy. Look at it from my perspective: you've already rejected a book that is a typical 9.8. Who knows what you might find on another copy that might not be acceptable? And, if I may be so bold, your math is a little off: Sending out a "book for free" wouldn't refund me the ship cost of the original book to and from you...it would just mitigate...slightly...the cost to send the "replacement" out...and since you're brand new to slabs, each one weighs *about* a pound and a few ounces, depending on the book. Since you're in "Zone 8" from me, that would add an additional $4-$5 or so in postage, not to mention the extra $4 or so for the additional nearly $300 in insurance. 

So, I'd not only be out the cost of the original to and from you, I'd have to pay more for the "replacement."  

3 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

I had already posted here and a few other forums asking about this and did not ask for the return till multiple people in the groups said this book was kinda funky.

If I may again...if your posts have been elsewhere as they were here, you've shown some pictures that are magnified and zoomed in quite a bit. When you do that, you're definitely going to make any flaw appear much worse than it is. That's why I included a picture of the listing; to give the flaw its proper context. I'm afraid many people will look at a flaw close up and will say it's worse than they would if they had the book in hand.

3 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

Seeing RMA's rep in here and his feedback on ebay and his book selection, I hate to go through with the claim over what is basically 15$ worth of shipping and get blacklisted by RMA,

Remember: shipping to and from, which makes it closer to $35, not $15. And, unfortunately, as terrible as it has to be, no one can really afford to do slab business on approval. I wouldn't be able to do future business with you, because...as you point out, my feedback IS stellar, top-rated, for a reason, something I've worked very hard on for a very long time...there are just some times when a buyer and a seller aren't a good fit, and I would always be worried that the next transaction would also be unsatisfactory, and I never want to have unhappy customers.

I'm sure you'd feel the same way in my position. Terribly unfortunate, but necessary.

3 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

I also hate the idea that I dropped a ton of cash on a book which I would not have bought if he simply would have disclosed this out of the ordinary damage for the grade.

I feel like I need to point out once again that the bindery tear to which you are referring is not out of the ordinary for the grade. In fact, if the head modern grader at CGC, Shawn Caffrey, was asked his opinion, he'd have no problem confirming the book is a 9.8. Have you considered asking them? But, again...this is not out of the ordinary damage. I recognize my bias....but I've submitted, personally, several thousand books to CGC, and I'm *super* familiar with how they grade Copper books. And, as you freely admit...this was the very first CGC book you ever purchased.

I didn't disclose it because, being intimately familiar with how CGC grades these books, it never occurred to me that someone might have a problem with a bindery chip on a 1987 Marvel in a 9.8 slab because, indeed, in nearly 20 years buying and selling slabs, perhaps 5,000 or more, no one ever has. 

(I know, if I had a dollar for every time a seller said "no one's ever had a problem before!"  )

3 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

I would have simply bought one of his other copies that I assume don't have a giant dent on the corner. 

Whoa...gotta correct ya there, pardner...as I explained earlier, there is no dent, giant (?) or otherwise. Every page, like so many, many 80s Marvels, has the same "bindery chip" as the covers...that's how, by the way, that you can tell the book hasn't been trimmed: the interior page cuts match with the covers.

And 9.8s typically have problems; it's why they're 9.8s. This one of mine, for example:

It has that same "droop" you were complaining about earlier on the #156, a small (1/8" by 1/16") shallow indent along the upper edge near the right corner, and a tiny ( > 1/16") color break in the spine, which you can barely see in the scan above...I don't think it would meet your ultra-exacting standards, which I totally respect. As others have pointed out, it sounds like you're looking for 10s, and as you admit...they don't exist, and if they do, they are VERY expensive! Come to think of it....I haven't mentioned any of those flaws in that listing, and now I'm wondering if I should...

If I might get a little credit, I do post scans at a relatively high resolution (see above), so buyers can actually *see* some of the flaws that don't require a raked light to see...how many sellers just take digital pics of the slab...inside the CGC bag? Can't see *anything* in those pics, amirite...? Plus, I take returns, and most sellers just flat out say "no returns on third party graded books!"

Very off-putting, if I say so myself.

3 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

As someone who has made my living and my two full time employees from online sales for the past dozen years, I can't imagine ever listing a book like this without disclosure, 

Yeah, I hear you. I've been on eBay since 1998. One of the "lifers." I can't imagine ever listing a book without disclosing flaws that materially affect the grade given, like a detached cover that's taped back on, or a book that's been trimmed or color touched, or has a page missing. Lots and lots of people out there leaving out "the big stuff." Then again, I can't imagine filing a "not as described case" for a book that was described correctly, but which I just didn't like, so I wouldn't have to pay the shipping to and from, or opening a dispute without at least attempting to contact the seller directly first, but hey, we all have different standards by which we operate, I suppose. 

3 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

but then again, I have never dealt in the graded comic field before. 

True. We were all new and very inexperienced at one point. 

3 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

Oh well.... thanks for the thoughts on the post everyone.

No, thank you for allowing me the opportunity to respond! As I said, I'm truly sorry that you're not satisfied with your purchase, regardless of why. If you're not happy, you're not happy. That's all that matters to me. I would be more than happy to take the return for the book; it's a lovely book, and I'll be glad to get it back. 

Looking forward to a positive resolution to this! 

Edited February 7, 2020 by RockMyAmadeus

[Jeffro.]

7 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

RMA has really put me in a hard place here.

No he didn't. If you are not happy with the book, return it. RMA has stated as much above.

 

[Batman]

8 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

RMA has really put me in a hard place here...

Welcome to the boards, BmoGreen.

I think it would be more accurate to say you’ve put yourself in a hard place. The book was sold as a CGC 9.8 and that’s what you received. If you are unhappy with the book, it’s not because it hasn’t been graded correctly to CGC’s standards, it’s because the book doesn’t meet your standards. It isn’t defective or “not as described” therefore the seller isn’t obliged to pay return shipping (see eBay guidelines on returning items). As this is just a case of you being unhappy with item, the correct thing to do would be for you to pay the return shipping costs.

[steveinthecity]

3 hours ago, Batman said:

...the correct thing to do would be for you to pay the return shipping costs.

Agree. The cost and effort to safely package and ship the book back seems very reasonable, and a small price to pay as part of the learning curve of collecting third party graded comic books.

Welcome to the CGC community, BmoGreen!

[Avi]

13 hours ago, BmoGreen said:

Not understanding the "you just WONT an issue with it." does "WONT" stand for something I dont understand?

Sorry, sometimes I just type, read, and submit at the same time.

I meant to say "you just WONT find an issue without it"

It; being a defect in the corner.