Steve Ditko actually wrote about Spider-man... A LOT 5 5

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, 500Club said:

9 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

And it IS fair to say that, without Stan, Jack and Steve would not have had the platform for their greatest successes, that far exceeded virtually everything they had done, either before or since. Clearly, there was a symbiosis involved corporately that would not have existed separately, regardless of what the real measure of credit actually is.

It's important to note that the issue isn't that Ditko is suggesting that Stan deserves no credit. It's that Ditko is saying that Stan stole credit to which he was not due, because Stan's #1 goal in life was the promotion of Stan. And any objective analysis would admit that. Stan was a glory hog, no two ways about it. Jack and Steve were not. 

This is where I stand. 

Sometimes, it just seems that the pendulum swings too far in these threads, toward the complete tarring and feathering of Stan.

But I'm sure you can understand that a critical analysis of Stan is going to look like "the complete tarring and feathering of Stan", because Stan did and said some really, really scummy things.

I mean, the guy compared Ditko to Hitler. Stan Godwin'd his own interview.

There's a ton, ton bunch of hero worship where Stan is concerned, and that's understandable, but a measured analysis reveals a guy whose #1 fan was himself, and who always looked out for himself over and above everyone else. And that's a bit of a shame. That that tireless self-promotion brought a LOT of people along with him is something to be celebrated, for sure! But it has its ugly underside, and now that their lives are complete, it's fair to do an objective analysis of them.

[greggy]

Just now, jsilverjanet said:

I saw he quoted me but then the post was removed. What did he say? Was he hitting on me again. Perv.

Nothing out of the ordinary so I'm not sure why it got removed. 

[Senormac]

4 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

38 minutes ago, GACollectibles said:

2 hours ago, Senormac said:

This thread needs a pole. 

1. Lee was the best

2. Ditko was the best

3. Kirby was the best

4. Crack is the best

5. Best Buy is open 10 am to 9 pm

(In my best Inigo Montoya voice)

I do not think pole means what you think it means.

I think there are too many... um, poles in this thread already.

  I didn't have anything else to offer.  

I wonder what ol Don Heck thought of Stan Lee 

[jsilverjanet]

Just now, greggy said:

Nothing out of the ordinary so I'm not sure why it got removed. 

you definition of ordinary isn't the same as mine. You're Canadian. You eat gravy with fries and think mooses are cool

[greggy]

Just now, jsilverjanet said:

you definition of ordinary isn't the same as mine. You're Canadian. You eat gravy with fries and think mooses are cool

And my height is above average

[MetalPSI]

Just now, jsilverjanet said:

you definition of ordinary isn't the same as mine. You're Canadian. You eat gravy with fries and think mooses are cool

meeces. One moose, two meeces

[VintageComics]

6 minutes ago, greggy said:

A few times.  The last time, Roy's comments were missing after the lock.  Not sure for what reason though. 

xoxo

I have no idea why my comments were removed either.

Probably because they were trimmed with Kav's comments, although I didn't post anything offensive or incorrect.

Maybe the mods just love me a little extra.

[jsilverjanet]

2 minutes ago, greggy said:

And my height is above average

I'm tall for a Mexican. 

[VintageComics]

7 minutes ago, jsilverjanet said:

Was he hitting on me again. Perv.

We're short on moose here this week, so...

[sfcityduck]

15 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

It's important to note that the issue isn't that Ditko is suggesting that Stan deserves no credit. It's that Ditko is saying that Stan stole credit to which he was not due, because Stan's #1 goal in life was the promotion of Stan. And any objective analysis would admit that. Stan was a glory hog, no two ways about it. Jack and Steve were not. 

Ditko is, of course, correct that he and Stan both deserve some credit.  How you split it is debating the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin. 

And I'd admit that Stan was self-glorifying, indeed that was the persona that helped make Marvel special.  But, he also over glorified his colleagues (e.g. Jake "King" Kirby) in his quest to portray Marvel as the greatest comic publisher in the world.  As to whether Jack and Steve were also prone to self-promote at the expense of others - Steve was not.  It was not in his genes.  And if he'd never have met Stan, his reputation would be much much much poorer, because he too benefited from Stan's hype. 

In contrast, for whatever reasons, Jack WAS known to overclaim credit at the expense of others - the example of Ditko's Spider-man being an obvious exhibit.  

As I have repeatedly said, this is not the black or white situation that Ditko paints it to be.  We are dealing with sinners, not saints, men with faulty memories, agendas, and, yes, axes to grind.  And that includes Ditko, as his own writings with their over the top critique of Stan readily demonstrate.

[topofthetotem]

11 minutes ago, jsilverjanet said:

you definition of ordinary isn't the same as mine. You're Canadian. You eat gravy with fries and think mooses are cool

Moose are cool let see a lame bald eagle do that! 

[sfcityduck]

On 2/14/2020 at 7:18 AM, Chuck Gower said:

This is the Ditko rhetoric that causes me to cringe in embarrassment for his memory.  

He's pissed that Stan wrote in a letter to a FAN MAGAZINE that Dr. Strange "Twas Steve's idea" instead of "It was Steve's idea"!?!  

What the ....?  

Did he never read Stan's public prose?  "Twas," "lo and behold," and "sayeth" are Stan's style, not an attempt to mock Ditko.  It's a crazy analysis.

But, Ditko reveals why he thinks that way when he states:  "Why not the clear, honest, objective:"  The key is Steve's italicized "objective."  This comment betrays that Steve's immersion in objectivism had tainted his perceptions.  He saw insults and ridicule where no one else would.   

[RockMyAmadeus]

Moose - one of the most dangerous animals on the planet

No, really.

 

[Jeffro.]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Moose - one of the most dangerous animals on the planet

No, really.

A Møøse once bit my sister...

[jsilverjanet]

These colors don't run Ricky

[Prince Namor]

Some Don Heck:

“The earlier design, the robot- looking one, was more Kirbyish.  I didn't go into the office much at the time, and they were better at it, anyway, better at designing things like that. I did the character bits, the scenes with Pepper Potts and Happy Hogan, and Tony Stark, and all the other things like that. I did all that kind of stuff, and I did the origin story. But what happens with something like that is that the cover is due, like a month before, so Jack makes up a cover for Iron Man, and the character's design is right there on it. Then Stan calls me up and says, "You're doing a character called Iron Man."  That's about it. Well, Jack Kirby is the one who created most of those characters.  He's the one who was always in there, and he's the one who was developing all those characters. Stan and he would get together, and they'd start discussing it together.  I try not to brush the truth into the corner. It's what it is.”

[topofthetotem]

7 minutes ago, jsilverjanet said:

These colors don't run Ricky

 

[BlowUpTheMoon]

34 minutes ago, Jëffrö... said:

37 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Moose - one of the most dangerous animals on the planet

No, really.

A Møøse once bit my sister...

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by BlowUpTheMoon

[Prince Namor]

More Don Heck:

”Jack Kirby created Thor, and he was great. Thor was always a good character. And I can't remember the other ones.  Captain America, well, Cap was always a good character.”

[Prince Namor]

Don Heck: "At Marvel I used to draw characters with their mouths closed. That was the way it was always done in comics. Stan used to complain, "Hey, this guy is talking, and you've got his mouth closed." That was Stan, he probably couldn't find anything bigger to complain about. I mean an editor has to do something. Stan wasn't really a perfectionist, but there was this, 'There's got to be some reason for me being here!' "