Steve Ditko actually wrote about Spider-man... A LOT 5 5

[N e r V]

19 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

The only issue Jack penciled was Strange Tales 135, and it is by far the best origin story of Marvel's Silver Age in my humble opinion.

From 136-on, all Kirby was doing was lay outs (maybe with an issue exception).  So I'm basing my opinion on one issue.  Plus, I love Steranko's covers, but his interior art leaves me less inspired than many others.

Gotcha’

Marvel’s staff was still pretty small so it’s no wonder Kirby was getting stretched thin. He did pencil the covers though and few are very exciting vs the Steranko ones IMO. 
 

I’ll need to reread my Strange Tales #135 again now though since I don’t remember the first appearance being something that impressed me. Been more than a few years though. Most Kirby work in that time frame with a good inker works for me even if it’s not his strongest title. Not until Mike Royers “tracing” inks on Kirby happen do I jump off the Kirby bandwagon...

[William-James88]

57 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

  Plus, I love Steranko's covers, but his interior art leaves me less inspired than many others.

Pretty sure that's a unanimous feeling. Not a knock against him of course, he just really set himself apart when it came to covers.

[Prince Namor]

4 hours ago, N e r V said:

That’s a pretty good list IMO but I have to admit having collected comics since the 1970’s you are among the few I’ve seen picking Kirby over Steranko for Nick Fury/SHIELD. 
 

Story goes Steranko picked SHIELD because it wasn’t selling that hot due to Kirby not knowing how to handle that type of work.

One of the earliest 'old' comics I ever owned as a kid was a copy of Strange Tales #141, an issue Kirby did the full art for (he did layouts for issues #136-140, full pencils on #141-142, and then layouts the rest of the series). Of course, I look back on this issue with fond memories, but I remember the technical creativity of it clearly... the diamond tipped Bazooka Drill, the Vacuum Shoes, the saucer and the escape route under the city, the ESP Division, the Fixer's prison escape... man, that 12 page story was just bursting with ideas!

Using Comichron for information: In 1965, Strange Tales' Average Total Paid Circulation as reported in the Publishers' Statement of Ownership (and Filed with the US Postal Service) is listed as 230,285 (#53). Marvel doesn't have many titles listed, but Journey Into Mystery (with Kirby's Thor) is #50 with 232,644. Tales to Astonish and Tales of Suspense are in the 220's. ASM and FF are not listed. The Nick Fury stories started part way through 1965.

In 1966 we see ASM at #16 (340,155), the FF at #19 (329,379), Thor at #23 (296,251), Avengers and Sgt. Fury at #30 and #31 (269/268,000) and Strange Tales at #36 (261,850 - a jump of 30,000 copies). Tales to Astonish, X-Men, Tales of Suspense follow, all above 252,000. Then the Westerns and then Millie.

In 1967, the Marvel titles are about the same but slightly up - ASM #14, FF #17, Thor #21, Avengers #30... but Tales to Astonish (#31), X-Men (#34) and Tales of Suspense (#37) jump up, while Sgt. Fury (#36) slightly drops... and Strange Tales really dips (#45), down 20,000 copies - is this due to Kirby or is it from Ditko's departure on Doctor Strange?

The book recovers in 1968, listed as Strange Tales/Doctor Strange at 266,422, #32 - but the numbers on Steranko's Nick Fury series isn't available.

 

4 hours ago, N e r V said:

Like the X-Men series Kirby certainly did a lot of the groundwork but he seemed to be mailing it in mostly on the series.

Maybe...

But in May of 1965 when it was released Kirby did the cover and 12 page story for Strange Tales #135, the cover and 21 pages (16+5) of Journey Into Mystery #118, the cover and 20 pages of Fantastic Four #41, the cover for Avengers #18, the cover of Rawhide Kid #47, the cover of Sgt. Fury #20, the cover and 10 pages of Tales of Suspense #68 (the Cap story), the cover and 10 pages of Tales to Astonish #70 (the Hulk story), and the cover and 20 pages of layouts for X-Men #12.

That's 73 pages of art, 20 pages of layouts and 9 covers in a single month!

Could be, he was just overworked!

4 hours ago, N e r V said:

When he was still alive I asked him once which he preferred Nick Fury or Sgt. Fury and he went in to tell me about working on Sgt. Fury at length without ever mentioning Nick Fury so I assumed that answered that...lol

Yeah, Sgt. Fury was a lot more personal to him because of his actual time in the war where he was in combat. I've read some things where he's talked about it, and you can tell it really had a huge effect on him... that's awesome you had a chance to meet and talk to him!

Another interesting note about Strange Tales: Other than #130's Doctor Strange cover, Lee never had Ditko's creation as a cover until the artist quit, putting him on there for his last issue (#145). From that point on Lee had Strange alternate with Nick Fury on the cover each month. 

[Prince Namor]

15 hours ago, MR SigS said:

The biggest difference between the two covers is Ditko's has a gun. Could this be Lee's reason? A gun doesn't appear on ASM until #26.

I think that may be it. 

It's strange how it goes from being a very busy cover to kind of a plain one (and Stan had no aversion to busy covers!), but the one difference is that gun - good call!

Edited February 24, 2020 by Chuck Gower

[N e r V]

4 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

One of the earliest 'old' comics I ever owned as a kid was a copy of Strange Tales #141, an issue Kirby did the full art for (he did layouts for issues #136-140, full pencils on #141-142, and then layouts the rest of the series). Of course, I look back on this issue with fond memories, but I remember the technical creativity of it clearly... the diamond tipped Bazooka Drill, the Vacuum Shoes, the saucer and the escape route under the city, the ESP Division, the Fixer's prison escape... man, that 12 page story was just bursting with ideas!

Using Comichron for information: In 1965, Strange Tales' Average Total Paid Circulation as reported in the Publishers' Statement of Ownership (and Filed with the US Postal Service) is listed as 230,285 (#53). Marvel doesn't have many titles listed, but Journey Into Mystery (with Kirby's Thor) is #50 with 232,644. Tales to Astonish and Tales of Suspense are in the 220's. ASM and FF are not listed. The Nick Fury stories started part way through 1965.

In 1966 we see ASM at #16 (340,155), the FF at #19 (329,379), Thor at #23 (296,251), Avengers and Sgt. Fury at #30 and #31 (269/268,000) and Strange Tales at #36 (261,850 - a jump of 30,000 copies). Tales to Astonish, X-Men, Tales of Suspense follow, all above 252,000. Then the Westerns and then Millie.

In 1967, the Marvel titles are about the same but slightly up - ASM #14, FF #17, Thor #21, Avengers #30... but Tales to Astonish (#31), X-Men (#34) and Tales of Suspense (#37) jump up, while Sgt. Fury (#36) slightly drops... and Strange Tales really dips (#45), down 20,000 copies - is this due to Kirby or is it from Ditko's departure on Doctor Strange?

The book recovers in 1968, listed as Strange Tales/Doctor Strange at 266,422, #32 - but the numbers on Steranko's Nick Fury series isn't available.

 

Maybe...

But in May of 1965 when it was released Kirby did the cover and 12 page story for Strange Tales #135, the cover and 21 pages (16+5) of Journey Into Mystery #118, the cover and 20 pages of Fantastic Four #41, the cover for Avengers #18, the cover of Rawhide Kid #47, the cover of Sgt. Fury #20, the cover and 10 pages of Tales of Suspense #68 (the Cap story), the cover and 10 pages of Tales to Astonish #70 (the Hulk story), and the cover and 20 pages of layouts for X-Men #12.

That's 73 pages of art, 20 pages of layouts and 9 covers in a single month!

Could be, he was just overworked!

Yeah, Sgt. Fury was a lot more personal to him because of his actual time in the war where he was in combat. I've read some things where he's talked about it, and you can tell it really had a huge effect on him... that's awesome you had a chance to meet and talk to him!

Another interesting note about Strange Tales: Other than #130's Doctor Strange cover, Lee never had Ditko's creation as a cover until the artist quit, putting him on there for his last issue (#145). From that point on Lee had Strange alternate with Nick Fury on the cover each month. 

Those paid circulation numbers have been discussed for years on the internet. According to any number of people who actually worked in and around the industry (Mark Evanier and Cory Sedlmeier to name just a few) they have no basis in fact. They may be remotely close or grossly off. I’ve been on a few message boards where they were discussed and while I did some assistance for Marvel with their Masterworks program I had a couple of them confirm it as well. 
 

That said I was just repeating what Steranko said when he joined Marvel and Stan asked him which title he wanted to do. Wasn’t in that room so who knows...

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, N e r V said:

Those paid circulation numbers have been discussed for years on the internet. According to any number of people who actually worked in and around the industry (Mark Evanier and Cory Sedlmeier to name just a few) they have no basis in fact. They may be remotely close or grossly off. I’ve been on a few message boards where they were discussed and while I did some assistance for Marvel with their Masterworks program I had a couple of them confirm it as well. 

I never knew that!

And even though the numbers actually kind of supports what Steranko is claiming, I guess it would mean that none of those numbers mean anything... So who knows if Spider-man really was a great seller for Marvel. Maybe Millie the Model was their best seller. Maybe we've been tricked all of these years and Marvel didn't really become the #1 publisher and DC was just too stupid to lie to the Post Office enough. 

I'll have to research this...

1. The sales figures published in the little Statement of Ownership boxes that ran in some comics were sometimes rough approximations and occasionally pure fiction. (Source: https://www.newsfromme.com/writings/100-things/)

That's different than having NO basis in fact. But still... a pretty damning claim. How can we believe any of it? If it's a guessing game as to which is true and which are not, that means all of it has to be suspect. 

That kinda sucks. I've used those numbers for years...

Quote

That said I was just repeating what Steranko said when he joined Marvel and Stan asked him which title he wanted to do. Wasn’t in that room so who knows...

THAT doesn't give me any more confidence in what the truth is... LOL

Edited February 24, 2020 by Chuck Gower

[jsilverjanet]

20 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

Yes, very interesting how ASM turned into a romance book after Romita took it over. Which is great - I'm a big fan of those books and his women are some of the best drawn of the era. Just that... it's very interesting.

When I went back to read the early Spiderman books (I started reading Spidey at the end of the bronze age) I thought the best part of Romitas work was the Gwen/Mary Jane dynamic. As a big fan of Archie growing up it reminded me of Betty/Veronica dynamic.

[N e r V]

4 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

I never knew that!

And even though the numbers actually kind of supports what Steranko is claiming, I guess it would mean that none of those numbers mean anything... So who knows if Spider-man really was a great seller for Marvel. Maybe Millie the Model was their best seller. Maybe we've been tricked all of these years and Marvel didn't really become the #1 publisher and DC was just too stupid to lie to the Post Office enough. 

I'll have to research this...

1. The sales figures published in the little Statement of Ownership boxes that ran in some comics were sometimes rough approximations and occasionally pure fiction. (Source: https://www.newsfromme.com/writings/100-things/)

That's different than having NO basis in fact. But still... a pretty damning claim. How can we believe any of it? If it's a guessing game as to which is true and which are not, that means all of it has to be suspect. 

That kinda sucks. I've used those numbers for years...

THAT doesn't give me any more confidence in what the truth is... LOL

I know, I’m just saying. None of what I said matters either since the discussion was over what someone liked, sales be damned.

FYI, I grew up thinking all those sales figures were accurate too. Seemed like a cool thing to have insights into what sold before my time. As a Marvel employee explained it was just something to get done and no one cared what you put in there or who did it. In their own words it could have been a janitor filling in those numbers. There’s a lot more going on with the then returnable basis for comics that I was told but I’m not going to derail this thread about it.

The Steranko story as I said was something he’s repeated and Stan gave a similar version. There’s a lot of BS, bad memories, and outright lying by creators but it seems this story is probably close to the facts.

[N e r V]

4 minutes ago, jsilverjanet said:

When I went back to read the early Spiderman books (I started reading Spidey at the end of the bronze age) I thought the best part of Romitas work was the Gwen/Mary Jane dynamic. As a big fan of Archie growing up it reminded me of Betty/Veronica dynamic.

I’m still of the opinion that the first 150 or so issues of Spider-Man were some of the best comics done from a long storyline perspective.

The Ditko run introduced the early teen angst for the character.

The Romita run gave us the more adult advancing with adult tragedy in it.

The Kane/Andru run continued on with more key characters (Morbius, Punisher) and dark storylines (Gwens death) finally arriving with the first Peter/MJ hook ups but not before figuring out the love triangle one last time due to (the then new) cloning of miss Stacy.

Thats a simple breakdown of Spidey for sure but that run hits the spot for me. 

[jsilverjanet]

Just now, N e r V said:

I’m still of the opinion that the first 150 or so issues of Spider-Man were some of the best comics done from a long storyline perspective.

The Ditko run introduced the early teen angst for the character.

The Romita run gave us the more adult advancing with adult tragedy in it.

The Kane/Andru run continued on with more key characters (Morbius, Punisher) and dark storylines (Gwens death) finally arriving with the first Peter/MJ hook ups but not before figuring out the love triangle one last time due to (the then new) cloning of miss Stacy.

Thats a simple breakdown of Spidey for sure but that run hits the spot for me. 

I agree. The first 150 are fantastic. 

[N e r V]

2 minutes ago, jsilverjanet said:

I agree. The first 150 are fantastic. 

Just like with Archie I had a favorite which was Veronica but with Spider-Man I liked the blonde Gwen better even though she was killed off in the first issue I saw on the stands. But I read Spider-Man at the time not for Spider-Man but the Peter Parker storyline. This scene below from #143 is still burned into my head as the big payoff with the developing romance of the two.

 

[N e r V]

And now I have completely derailed your thread...

[Prince Namor]

32 minutes ago, N e r V said:

I’m still of the opinion that the first 150 or so issues of Spider-Man were some of the best comics done from a long storyline perspective.

The Ditko run introduced the early teen angst for the character.

The Romita run gave us the more adult advancing with adult tragedy in it.

The Kane/Andru run continued on with more key characters (Morbius, Punisher) and dark storylines (Gwens death) finally arriving with the first Peter/MJ hook ups but not before figuring out the love triangle one last time due to (the then new) cloning of miss Stacy.

Thats a simple breakdown of Spidey for sure but that run hits the spot for me. 

Totally agree. Best 150 issue run of anything ever. Only FF comes close.

[N e r V]

3 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Totally agree. Best 150 issue run of anything ever. Only FF comes close.

Yeah one of the great things about reading Marvel comics in the 1970’s at that time you could read monthly books like FF and Spiderman (one with Medusa and one without Gwen) but thanks to books like Marvels Greatest and Marvel Tales you could read the Lee/Kirby and Lee/Romita stories to see what came before. It was a great way for a kid to get hooked on SA books without ever having seen them on the stands.

[RockMyAmadeus]

22 hours ago, N e r V said:

Ditko chicks all looked angry and b*tchy...lol

DAYUM.

 

[N e r V]

18 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

DAYUM.

 

Ditko:

 

 

Romita:

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 minutes ago, N e r V said:

Ditko:

 

 

 

Oh, I wasn't disagreeing.

 

[N e r V]

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Oh, I wasn't disagreeing.

 

I know but I figured seeing is believing...

[MetalPSI]

Tee hee

[Ken Aldred]

On 2/23/2020 at 7:23 AM, MR SigS said:

 

This Spidey is more typical of Kirby.

 

The webbing on Spider-Man's mask looks more like reptile scales to me.

Here's an Alex Ross cover for a comparison...

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Ken Aldred