Steve Ditko actually wrote about Spider-man... A LOT 5 5

[Prince Namor]

Here Ditko kind of drives home his idea that, based upon how Stan Lee says he created the Marvel Universe, it's actually Martin Goodman who would be able to claim that.

[Prince Namor]

[shadroch]

1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

I suspect there are very few people who would take that seriously, and strangely they all seem to have the same world view.

[sfcityduck]

15 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

Two incorrect observations. Ditko did not take issue with Kirby taking credit for creating Spider-man. He understood where that came from.

What's the evidence for this assertion.  You have already posted at least four critical comments by Ditko where he takes to task the notion that Kirby created Spider-man, and the story of Ditko's mocking of Kirby's costume design of Spider-man is quite well known.  While I won't dispute that Ditko was much more angry with Lee for overclaiming credit for the creation of Spider-man, his ire towards Kirby shines through and I seem to recall other statements.

[jsilverjanet]

On 2/15/2020 at 11:32 PM, Chuck Gower said:

Put another way... the WRITER in movies isn't anywhere near as celebrated as the Director. Movies are a visual medium, and so the way a DIRECTOR tells the story, plays the biggest part in how's it's perceived. Even more so if the story is taken from a synopsis. 

The synopsis writer isn't considered the owner of the movie or the creator of the movie or the visionary, and especially not the person who is financially rewarded the most or critically compared to his contemporaries.

In may ways he may be considered the least important part of the process, especially as changes are made... 

they are called moving pictures for a reason

[500Club]

41 minutes ago, shadroch said:

I suspect there are very few people who would take that seriously, and strangely they all seem to have the same world view.

The argument that Goodman was the creator of the books in question is really tangential. 

I suspect we all know that Goodman saw the response to DC’s Justice League, and told Lee to craft something similar.  So, why stop with Goodman as the creator?  Why not stretch the thin thread of logic further, and say that DC created the Marvel books in question.

 

I get what Ditko is saying:  Goodman told Lee to create these ideas, just as Lee told Stan and Jack to create the follow-on visuals and ideas.  But, a three page treatise... 

[Prince Namor]

3 hours ago, shadroch said:

I suspect there are very few people who would take that seriously, and strangely they all seem to have the same world view.

Right, Ditko's the first person to expound upon an idea in a straight faced, darkly humorous writing style. It might be above your comprehension, but I can assure you it has nothing to do with politics, so please refrain from masking that against the rules topic.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Chuck Gower

[theCapraAegagrus]

[sfcityduck]

i do not think it is possible to discuss Ditkos later works or writing without referencing his political views.  He was an odd guy.

[shadroch]

1 minute ago, sfcityduck said:

i do not think it is possible to discuss Ditkos later works or writing without referencing his political views.  He was an odd guy.

His philosophical views are what makes him Ditko.

Personally, I don't care for his art. Never have. I missed his glory days by years and when I'd see his art in a  bronze age book, I'd generally pass.

He must have been a tough guy to work with. While he might have quit Marvel, his departure from DC was pretty quick and mutual,at best.

Funny how well Jack and Steve worked under the " Marvel Method" and failed when forced into the DC way". I'm sure it was all coincidental.

[Bronty]

17 hours ago, shadroch said:

Early in the thread, John Romita recalls conversations he overheard while Stan drove he and Jack Kirby home. At the time, Marvel was located in Manhattan and Stan lived in SW Nassau County, in a fairly isolated community.  It's a 20 minute train ride or half hour drive to  the office. Jack lived in Mineola/ Williston Park and Romita lived in Floral Park, about five miles west of Jack. Driving the two of them home and then heading back home would easily take him an hour out of the way. I've had good bosses and bad ones but never had one that would go an hour-hour and a half out of his way to drive an employee home.

Great anecdote.

I'm sure this opinion won't be appreciated by everyone on this thread, but to me anyone with a lick of sense has by now figured out that the most important employee Marvel ever had was Stan Lee.    Jack Kirby was also important.   Everyone else....   frankly including Ditko... a distant third at best.

"oh but what about all the work Kirby did?" 

--darn right, that's why he was number 2.    But Stan was there longer than anybody and in addition to significant formative creative output (on a par with Jack if you ask me - Jack did all the hard work and Stan added the personality)..     steered the company for years afterward and promoted the company for decades after that.    He was making movie appearances when he was 90 FFS.      

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Bronty

[jsilverjanet]

I think it's fair to say that no matter what evidence is presented or what opinions are shared, the idea you (no one in particular) have of Stan Lee will never change. He's the name responsible for your love of the hobby (or one of the reasons). Who cares by what means that was accomplished and who was wronged along the way. Not your concern and that's understandable. But the truth is the truth. You can't dispute the facts of who he was and what he did or didn't do.

 

 

[jsilverjanet]

I also think people can be the villian and the hero. One certainly doesn't define the other. People are complex. It seems here you can only be one or the other. 

[Prince Namor]

11 minutes ago, jsilverjanet said:

I think it's fair to say that no matter what evidence is presented or what opinions are shared, the idea you (no one in particular) have of Stan Lee will never change. He's the name responsible for your love of the hobby (or one of the reasons). Who cares by what means that was accomplished and who was wronged along the way. Not your concern and that's understandable. But the truth is the truth. You can't dispute the facts of who he was and what he did or didn't do.

Not sure what any of them are saying (nor do I care), I have them all on ignore now. 

But the point of the thread wasn't to trash Stan - not that it would matter, Stan's place in history is more secure than anyone's - but to present information that I'd never seen anywhere before. It's information from someone who was there. And I find that of interest. Some others have found it interesting too.

I don't necessarily agree with every bit of it - it's his opinion, not mine - I wasn't there at the time, but I found it interesting to read.

Of course all of the Stan defenders come out - as if the guy needs defending - he probably had 1000 times more opportunity to spread his version of the story than Jack or Steve did - but there they are - blaming me - as if I personally peed on their childhood memories. 

Don't like it? Don't come in here. I won't be able to read anything you say anyway.

It's a part of history. It's of interest. 

[sfcityduck]

17 minutes ago, jsilverjanet said:

I think it's fair to say that no matter what evidence is presented or what opinions are shared, the idea you (no one in particular) have of Stan Lee will never change. He's the name responsible for your love of the hobby (or one of the reasons). Who cares by what means that was accomplished and who was wronged along the way. Not your concern and that's understandable. But the truth is the truth. You can't dispute the facts of who he was and what he did or didn't do.

 

 

I don't think that any of your statements are fair.  As I stated up thread, I believe that either/or positions are rarely right.  So I'm very open to the notion that Lee, Kirby, and Ditko all have elements of truth in their stories.  

While "the truth is the truth," the hard part is figuring out what that truth is.  

And here, the debate is about how and what Stan and Jack and Steve respectively accomplished and who, if anyone, was wronged along the way.  

And that debate includes may "facts" reasonably in dispute.  

Chuck does not appear to agree.  He seems to think Ditko is an unimpeachable source (except when he mocks or lambasts Kirby).  You seem like you may tend towards Chuck's camp.

Me?  I think we'd all be better off going into a search for "truth" without preconceptions which impair our ability to see it.

[Prince Namor]

Right on cue.

[exitmusicblue]

5 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Right on cue.

An aside -- love your blog!

[Bronty]

2 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

Talking about bad actors...

"I have nothing against Stan and have respect for what he did in the industry....now here's 50 pages of stuff making him look like the biggest horses rear in the history of the business".

Heard it before and it's still dull and disingenuous.

"I can't see anything you're saying...except when I toggle and look at it".

[Bronty]

1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

I don't think that any of your statements are fair.  As I stated up thread, I believe that either/or positions are rarely right.  So I'm very open to the notion that Lee, Kirby, and Ditko all have elements of truth in their stories.  

While "the truth is the truth," the hard part is figuring out what that truth is.  

And here, the debate is about how and what Stan and Jack and Steve respectively accomplished and who, if anyone, was wronged along the way.  

And that debate includes may "facts" reasonably in dispute.  

 

 

well said. 

These threads always pointlessly spin around with "Facts" that aren't facts.   

I think all you can do is acknowledge the obvious.   Stan was key to the start of it all.   Jack was key to the start of it all.    Ditko, probably, although his contribution was short-lived.        Everybody else, meh.    They were ultimately replaceable.    

Edited February 17, 2020 by Bronty

[Ken Aldred]

I keep losing concentration while trying to read an interminable wall of text, which just goes on and on.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Ken Aldred