Whitman Variants, Direct vs Newsstand
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14 hours ago, Volcano1991 said:

Depends what era you're talking about. From the early days Newsstands were more plentiful than Direct so the above is not true for them.

Well since I can only speak to Spectacular Spider-Man, and not every book. I would say you CAN tell a Direct from a Newsstand, because at issue #30 there is a Box With Comic Head or a UPC Variant of everybook after that. So I would say when that begins, call it "Direct Edition" or  "Newsstand Variant" You could say that with all of them so clearly there is a difference. Before that I dunno and obviously we can't tell, but after that we can see it CLEARLY.

 

What scans?

CGC offers the optional "Scan" for $5 bucks on any book they grade so doesn't that mean they could go back and look? Barcode no Barcode? Just a thought. Who cares though. I mean if CGC decided they were going to let us send slabs back for a re-classification and reslab then they could make money, and we could get notation clarity that would make our books more valuble in the market place. Once people can see Directs are more common then UPC market gets a boost and CGC gets money.

 

I'd guess it's the latter.

You are correct. I mean sure I LOVE my CGC 9.8 Spectacular Spider-Man Collection, but I love the money i'm going to make when I sell it better. (Spectacular Spider-Man? LoL I know what you are gonna say already please don't) 

 

Not true of course.

Of Course it is True! If I have Super Man #1 in CGC 9.8 WP it is worth whatever I say it is, because it is RARE and 1 of 1. Somebody is willing to pay for it because it is the ONLY ONE. The more rare the book the more valuble it is in almost every scenerio. For the purpose of this discussion I would say that Newsstand Copies are more rare than Direct Editions in most cases if not all. Thus, once attention is made regarding this we have a spike it market collectability. As discussed CGC makes money we make money, and the collector universe is brought new excitement. 

 

Quote

You'd lose that bet.

I think I have already won this bet. I know that I want my collection to be the most desired set, simply by making it a set nobody else can compile. To do this I want more "Whitmans" "Mark Jewelers," "Fleer" "Bubblicious"  "Tattoo Variants, and on and on.... so the more complete I can make it the better. That means, I am an excited collector for the possibilities. Oh and lets not forget to mention the 10P and Error variants as are good friend in the start of this posted. I know some people already have pretty sets amassed and  want to pretend they have ALL the #'s and maybe they do. However, some of us CRAZY people want to be CRAZY and collect everything. To fuel fire on the Comicbook collectability we need new adventures. Lets add Variant notations to make this happen. CGC is the Best Grading company in my opinion because of the CENSUS data pure and simple. Without it there are other options. CGC did it right, and CGC can do it better. Lets do it!

Luckily there are way more raw collectors than there ate slab collectors (thumbsu

 

Raw vs Coffins. I get it. I also get the $$. Thanks to my Dad born in 1946 and a Vietnam vet who loved Comics, we (still alive) have NEAR Complete runs of Uncanny X-Men, Avengers, and Fantastic Four (many more), and of course hundreds of other great Gold, Silver and Bronze Age (RAW). Sure that is GREAT and YIPPY for us. BUT .... I could tell you they are NM or VF or G or whatever I want to say they are... and we all know grading is an opinion, but CGC attempts to keep a standard to the best of their abilities, and for this reason there is a nich here. As long as CGC like any company, does things responsible and ethical, this corner of the Grading market will be the only one that matters. Sales on CGC Graded books reflect the reason we are discussing this. I think adding these Variants after 20 years of waiting is critical to future Census Data, and EASY money for CGC. 

 

Edited by slpfi27
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19 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

:grin:

Sorry. As you can see, I used to be quite preoccupied with inserts...

ads.thumb.PNG.adfaf2ce1e32899eb88866a56cbb0f27.PNG

I managed to get them to call 'UK Price Variants' (And Canadian / Australians) just that so there's hope :wishluck:

I'll have a look...

Nice talking to a fellow lunatic variant enthusiast  :)

This is beautiful! I love the effort you put into finding the Variants. Don't forget Mexico made a run on the Spectacular Spidey series too! Since we are talking about going crazy.... OH and the DUTCH!

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1 hour ago, slpfi27 said:

This is beautiful! I love the effort you put into finding the Variants. Don't forget Mexico made a run on the Spectacular Spidey series too! Since we are talking about going crazy.... OH and the DUTCH!

Who can forget the Dutch :cloud9:

http://www.pecokit.com/checklist/ned/index.html

They would be local reprints though of course and not your bona fide first printing price variants. Still very nice though.

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1 hour ago, Volcano1991 said:

It's called a Newsstand edition, not a variant, no matter how much the speculators try to twist it.

Splitting hairs much? 

So should I call them White Diamond Box Version (since whitman isn't apparently accurate), and Newsstand Version (Because Variant is not what the dictionary say it is?)? Is that better? As a collector I just want to know what is out there. Best way to do that is classify it. Here is an example, I currently have the entire Spectacular Spider-Man set. Should anyone have versions with White Diamonds with Black Boxes I would love to purchase them in high grade condition. Since i do care about the rarity of said versions. Goal to get the entire set + ALL different kinds in CGC 9.8 WP Condition. 

var·i·ant
/ˈverēənt/
noun
 
  1. a form or version of something that differs in some respect from other forms of the same thing or from a standard.
    "clinically distinct variants of malaria"
     
     

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23 minutes ago, slpfi27 said:

Splitting hairs much?

No. You are the one who said Direct Edition and Newsstand Variant. It's Direct edition and Newsstand edition.

Technically, yes, one is the standard and one is a variant, but the wording you used is terrible and reveals a specific agenda. Maybe you should go find out where the hucksters are playing and blindly believe all their bull:censored: until you're damaged beyond repair.

30 minutes ago, slpfi27 said:

So should I call them White Diamond Box Version (since whitman isn't apparently accurate), and Newsstand Version (Because Variant is not what the dictionary say it is?)? Is that better?

That would be Direct edition and Newsstand edition. :gossip:

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11 hours ago, slpfi27 said:

Don't forget Mexico made a run on the Spectacular Spidey series too! Since we are talking about going crazy.... OH and the DUTCH!

Foreign licensed reprints are not relevant to collecting Marvel titles.

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3 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Maybe you should go find out where the hucksters are playing and blindly believe all their bull:censored: until you're damaged beyond repair.

 

12 hours ago, slpfi27 said:

The more rare the book the more valuble it is in almost every scenerio. For the purpose of this discussion I would say that Newsstand Copies are more rare than Direct Editions in most cases if not all. Thus, once attention is made regarding this we have a spike it market collectability. As discussed CGC makes money we make money, and the collector universe is brought new excitement. 

Yes, you should definitely go hang out with the other insufficiently_thoughtful_persons.

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2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

No. You are the one who said Direct Edition and Newsstand Variant. It's Direct edition and Newsstand edition.

Technically, yes, one is the standard and one is a variant, but the wording you used is terrible and reveals a specific agenda. Maybe you should go find out where the hucksters are playing and blindly believe all their bull:censored: until you're damaged beyond repair.

That would be Direct edition and Newsstand edition. :gossip:

I am grateful for your kind words and respect your opinion. I am not sure exactly where I get lumped with "hucksters" for simply suggesting that it makes a lot of sense to add specific classifications to the Census of Books, but okay?

I am simply suggesting that the books with a logo in the top left corner showing a Diamond in a Square (Pre-Spidey Logo, Pre Slash through the Barcode) get no recognition. The books that were distributed and sold where they used BAR CODE Scanners should get love as well. I may not use the correct classification for each ... (Variant) different type, but the message and intent of my post is pretty obvious. I can leave the proper designations to the experts. I am simply the collector, and I like to know how rare my set is and if I am missing something. See the allure? We know collecting comics can be expensive and I am willing to pay to get my books properly classified. If that isn't you that is okay too, but I think it should at least be an option for me. CGC can make this happen.

I could elaborate on all the reasons people collect books but let’s assume there is MANY reasons people collect comics to this day. I love comics but my set is 100% a financial experiment/endeavor for me. I want to make it as complete as possible. I could say a Raw book is NM, and people would say who are you? I could sell a NM/M CGC book and most people say ... Okay it's CGC. I may already have most of these different books (variants) but if CGC would recognize them as different ones in each respective #, there would be more value instantly. 

EXAMPLE: If sell a Spectacular Spider-Man #27 with the Bar Code on the Front (Pre-Spidey box on bottom left.) in CGC 9.8 it will fetch around $400. According to CGC there is 139 Examples of this issue. We know at this time CGC does not recognize the Black and Yellow Diamond in the top left. Of those 139 we do not know how many Yellow Diamond there are. But if I had a CGC 9.8 Diamond Copy, and CGC says... " Hey we are going to recognize this example moving forward" They will make a notation on the slab, update the Census and send it back to the owner. Owners of these books send the book back, Re-Slab, CGC makes $ for the re-slab. We get an EXTRA bonus our books get properly noted and graded. The book is now more valuble, and it is a win for the owner, win for CGC. Why is this bad? It simply becomes an option for people willing to pay for exclusive and desired books. 

 

My Two Cents... 

 

 

Edited by slpfi27
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6 hours ago, Volcano1991 said:

You answered your own question:

 

I still believe making classifications for variations of books is a solid benefit to everyone. Including CGC. I still think they should do it moving forward.

As for the "Huckster" Comment..

So because I have collected comics my whole life, and want to make a financial benefit on one set I have collected. That makes me a "Huckster"? If that is so I guess it was ment as a compliment. I'll take it. I'm not sure what you consider yourself?

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22 hours ago, slpfi27 said:

if CGC would recognize them as different ones in each respective #, there would be more value instantly. 

...

The book is now more valuble

???

Does CGC employ magicians? Are the words on the label magic? Or maybe you think collectors are nothing but retarded sheep? If the market doesn't already acknowledge a value difference between editions, how will CGC's actions change anything?

I am certainly not against CGC fully and properly identifying and classifying every book they grade and slab, but they have enough trouble with the stuff they already regularly separate.

The other problem is that there is already an issue with :censored: making claims about the census rarity of certain versions of some books. Never mind that the vast majority of what's on the census was submitted before CGC decided to acknowledge the difference.

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On 2/16/2020 at 4:43 PM, Lazyboy said:

Foreign licensed reprints are not relevant to collecting Marvel titles.

They may not be relevant to you, but perhaps they are to some.

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4 minutes ago, shadroch said:
On 2/16/2020 at 5:43 PM, Lazyboy said:

Foreign licensed reprints are not relevant to collecting Marvel titles.

They may not be relevant to you, but perhaps they are to some.

You misunderstand. People can collect whatever they want, but foreign licensed reprints are NOT Marvel titles.

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On 2/16/2020 at 6:02 AM, slpfi27 said:

The more rare the book the more valuable it is in almost every scenario.

Not without demand. Rarity without demand isn't worth much. There are plenty of examples in the collectibles field of something being rare but with no or little demand, it doesn't sell or if it does, it's not for very much.

Edited by Jëffrö...

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I think that CGC should identify direct vs newsstand editions, and label them as such. The Whitman designation should be given to books with the Whitman logo on the cover. They are all  limited area of collecting but very relevant to the community. Same goes for international variants. It's not about increasing prices for certain books, but rather to get relevant information out there. The census is a good tool for people who collect graded books but has little relevance to people who only collect raw books. 

  

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On 2/16/2020 at 5:28 AM, slpfi27 said:

Okay so "Direct Market Editions" Whatever they should be called. Clearly i'm not an "expert" but the clarity of what a book is should be noted. The way CGC makes this make sense is they make money on doing it. As you said, it benefits us and them in almost everyway possible. So I get it.... 20 Years later .... Here we are lets do this! Lets call a book what it is. Also software and technology is with us. Why keep the old ways when the new ways are so much more CRAZY! :)

 

Call them Whitman variants if you want.  That's what they are, up through May 1979.  Those ARE NOT "direct" issues.

Read the thread that Marwood referenced on Feb 15th for all the point/counterpoints.  

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3 hours ago, Warlord said:

Call them Whitman variants if you want.  That's what they are, up through May 1979.  Those ARE NOT "direct" issues.

Read the thread that Marwood referenced on Feb 15th for all the point/counterpoints.  

Nope. They are, in fact, Direct editions, made expressly because they needed a way to differentiate Direct from newsstand copies, so that Direct copies wouldn't be returned through newsstand distribution channels.

Otherwise, there was no need for them to be made.

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41 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:
4 hours ago, Warlord said:

Call them Whitman variants if you want.  That's what they are, up through May 1979.  Those ARE NOT "direct" issues.

Read the thread that Marwood referenced on Feb 15th for all the point/counterpoints.  

Nope. They are, in fact, Direct editions, made expressly because they needed a way to differentiate Direct from newsstand copies, so that Direct copies wouldn't be returned through newsstand distribution channels.

Otherwise, there was no need for them to be made.

So he can't call them that if he wants?  meh

The Whitman/Western design from 77-79 was the antecedent to the design Marvel adopted for their direct program in 1979.  

See page five of American Comic Book Chronicles The 1970's By Jason Sacks, Keith Dallas, Dave Dykema

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1 hour ago, bababooey said:

So he can't call them that if he wants?  meh

Anyone can call them anything they want. They want to call them fruit-flavored popsicle sticks, they should knock themselves out. Doesn't mean they're right. 

Oh, and meh

1 hour ago, bababooey said:

The Whitman/Western design from 77-79 was the antecedent to the design Marvel adopted for their direct program in 1979.  

See page five of American Comic Book Chronicles The 1970's By Jason Sacks, Keith Dallas, Dave Dykema

Marvel had a Direct program that started in 1973. Between 1973 and late 1976, someone figured out that retailers/sub-distributors/whoever buying comics at Direct (non-returnable) prices either could return, or were returning, books through the newsstand distribution system, thereby cheating the publishers, and they'd need to print the books with a way to differentiate between the 2. Without the Direct market, those books wouldn't exist, because there would be no need for them to.

Since Western didn't return books...it not being part of their business model...and they certainly wouldn't be cheating Marvel in any event...Marvel saw no need to make a "Whitman" version, unlike DC, which did.

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I love the flexing of comic knowledge. The Whitman, Not Whitman, or Direct edition? We get it, you guys are comic smart. We can debate that on another post. 

Perhaps the intention of the post got lost in the title of it. My fault?! Let me clarify again....

Like I said at the start. I just want them to get classified to improve census data and give people the opportunity to expand collections and grow knowledge. I think people tripping over is/isn't is really irrelevant. 

Correct Book Classification is 100% a benefit to the CGC comic collecting community. As well as the "hucksters" out there. Who cares what your high and mighty opinion is. (not you specifically).

Honestly, it's for the love of the sport! If I happen to make a few bucks on my hobby. So be it! Cry about your entitled morals elsewhere. (Not you specifically)

Example: (for the slow ones) Amazing Spider-Man #XXX is out there Census Data says there is 661 Graded. Wouldn't it be cool? If the Census said, thus far CGC has recorded 100 Newsstand Variants, 500 Direct Editions, 1 Double Cover, 50 Mark Jewlers inserts, 10 Errors?

Bet your Chicken Farm, if I'm a serious fan of Spider-Man I will be wanting that Double Cover!

Please dont explain how all the grading that has already been done makes this impossible. It is very simple how this would work. Once CGC acknowledges the need to "Classify" the different examples. They would Charge a Re-slab Fee for already graded books, and correctly capture new books going forward. All the while updating the Census as they go. N if you dont care, then keep your "Debbie Downer" opinions to yourself. (Not you specifically)

Call a book what it is.... 

Label it Properly! If it's a "Direct Edition" "Whitman" "Newsstand" "Error" or whatever. Just make it right, and record it. 

Use your higher intellect to solve the situation. Clearly there is some kind of benefit to correctly label a book. 

Let the games continue! 

Brian W

<slpfi27>

P.S you better be paying attention CGC! Let's put correct classification and Census Data on these books. I am just fine if you make more money doing it. That's my two cents.

*COURT ADJOURNED*

Edited by slpfi27
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2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Since Western didn't return books...it not being part of their business model...and they certainly wouldn't be cheating Marvel in any event...Marvel saw no need to make a "Whitman" version, unlike DC, which did.

You continually repeat this like it proves your point.  The point of redesign by Marvel for Whitman/Western was to prevent abuse by others who had the ability to return since the books could be remaindered by those who could.  If Marvel saw "no need" why would DC bother with a redesign at all?

You can read the source I offered earlier via google books search....what'd you think of that? 

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