Real Stan Lee, but fake Kirby? 0

[The Lions Den]

1 hour ago, shadroch said:

A number of former Signature Series facilitators are no longer certified or whatever the term is.. Why do you think that is?

Having actually been a sig series witness a time or two, I can think of a number of things that are more enjoyable...like shoving a sharpened pencil in my ear...

[Lazyboy]

15 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

Having actually been a sig series witness a time or two, I can think of a number of things that are more enjoyable...like shoving a sharpened pencil in my ear...

I think he meant people who were removed by CGC, not those who decided their time was better spent elsewhere.

[Buzzetta]

19 hours ago, kav said:

@Buzzetta had one frightening story about the witnessing at one particular con where you got sig at point A then walked to another area far away to get it encapsulated.

 

18 hours ago, kav said:

Couldnt someone sign a bunch themselves and print out copies of the COAs tho?  Harder to fake a yellow label I think altho as I said there can be some gaps in the process as witnessed by Buzz.

Supposedly, that incident from 2012 has been rectified in all shows from that point on. 

[CardiacKid1]

I just found this thread.  I have one of these, with a witnessed Stan Lee signature and an alleged Dynamic-Forces Jack Kirby signature.

I remember when this comic was released that Jack Kirby appeared on TV -- I am pretty sure it was QVC -- when they were selling signed copies of the comic.  They certainly represented that Kirby was personally signing these comics.  My memory could be wrong after all of these years, but I think they actually showed Kirby signing some of the books during the commercial.  That doesn't mean anything, of course, regarding any particular signed book.  But I wonder if any of these books -- whether it's the FF 1 Marvel Milestone or the X-Men 1 Marvel Milestone, were actually signed by Jack and not Roz Kirby? 

[shadroch]

On 2/17/2020 at 1:24 AM, Domo Arigato said:

 

 

So, in other words.....those Dynamic Forces signed editions with the Certificate of Authenticity meant exactly dick squat. 

 

 

If you consider defrauding up to two thousand of your fans squat, I'd agree.  Personally, I think it leaves a dark stain on his legacy that a couple living in a million dollar mansion felt the need to squeeze money out of unsuspecting fans.   It's one thing to sign your husbands name to a fan letter who didn't pay for it, but the Kirby's took a large paycheck and committed fraud.  Shame on them. 

[Sigur Ros]

On 5/25/2022 at 12:15 PM, CardiacKid1 said:

 

What I've never understood is if they can't verify the signature, how can they claim to know what it says? 

Sure, there are times when it's obvious but someone named Jock Kuly could have signed this and they're claiming it's Jack Kirby. 

And no one can say "well they know what Kirby's signature looks like, duh!" because they don't even know if that's his signature. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Sigur Ros

[troydivision1]

Just saw this thread also.
One of my books was used as a linked example on the first page.
(see image below)
Over the years after speaking with knowledgeable Signature Series veterans I have come to the conclusions that mine was more than likely signed by Roz.
It doesn't negate it in any way.
I still consider it a Top 10 book in my collection...because there is no way I could replace it with the asking prices being so bananas...

Edited May 25, 2022 by Troy Division

[DougC]

Wife/Manager/Secretarial signatures are very prevalent in other industries throughout history and today. Comics is one of the few places where your more likely to find a real signature on a raw book than a fake one (especially if it is on the first page).

Not a quarter goes by in the retail book industry where an autographed exclusive isn't found out to be an autopen (Barnes & Noble are the worst for these). In the sports industry many players have their managers or wives sign cards/sticker sheets, it isn't even a secret any more. Even presidents/first ladies like the Obama's autopenned their books, Trump is prolific in using autopen and has a database of templates.

Obviously big names are going to be forged but when comics gets to the point that Fingeroth, Shooter, Mhan, or Totleben have previously created autopen templates we have to data base and compare, then we have really made it to the big time.

 

[mrwoogieman]

Has me wondering about this signed print 

 

 

[lordbyroncomics]

On 2/17/2020 at 3:16 PM, kav said:

According to Glen Gold, Kirby historian, Jack couldnt even hold a pencil in 1990.
that sig looks way fake to me.

Glen Gold, Kirby historian LOL.

 

Can't make this sh*t up. Well there you go, GLEN GOLD said it, it's gospel! Good enough for me

[kav]

On 5/25/2022 at 3:12 PM, wisbyron said:

Glen Gold, Kirby historian LOL.

 

Can't make this sh*t up. Well there you go, GLEN GOLD said it, it's gospel! Good enough for me

well he was with him in 1990-how about you?

[lordbyroncomics]

On 2/17/2020 at 3:38 PM, shadroch said:

I'm not aware of one's that charge a hefty premium and then have some one else do it, but even if there are, it's still fraud and a despicable practice. Jack was a millionaire, many times over, and certainly didn't need the money.

Oh, you're concerned about fraud and it's Kirby you target. Interesting.

Kirby was certainly not a millionaire and this is factually documented so it's factually researched.

It's dangerous to just put out false stuff based on hearsay or something you heard a guy say once; but it's a very attractive narrative to disparage Kirby in every way so none of this is surprising. 

[lordbyroncomics]

On 5/25/2022 at 6:13 PM, kav said:

well he was with him in 1990-how about you?

I was sadly not there with ol' Glen and Kirby, especially as I was 10.

My point is, I know what you refer to and it's being taken out of context. Kirby's arthritis had made his drawing sketches and such decline by the late Eighties, but he still had to sign legal documents and such and would make loose sketches for his Grandchildren up to 1992. What Glen said was about a specific instance. But you think what you want- a guy that created the vast backbone of the industry you all can't let go, a guy who literally killed Nazis in the second World War, by all means, put the unproven speculation out there and infer that he's a despicable millionaire. The irony is fantastic. 

[kav]

wtf

[jcjames]

On 2/18/2020 at 9:01 AM, Buzzetta said:

 

Supposedly, that incident from 2012 has been rectified in all shows from that point on. 

It was not at all rectified, not at least into 2014 and 2016. 

I had Stan Lee sign several books at several cons during those years and it was pure chaos.

My books went from my hands, to Stan's table to sign, then back into my hands, and then I carried them about 50-100ft away from the signing area, by myself, to then stand in line to get them checked in for CGC-SS.

The line was about 20-30 people long, so there we stood, our signed books in-hand waiting for maybe 10 minutes to get to the check-in.

There is no WAY anyone but me could know which books Stan had actually signed, or if ANY of them were legit Stan sigs. This happened in at least three cons I went to from 2014 to end of 2016. I seriously wanted to shoot a video of the monkey-circus that was the Stan Lee CGC-Verification charade, but I was fairly new to the CGC-SS game so I didn't sound any alarms. 

As an aside, at another con I went to (maybe 2017) I had two books for George Perez to sign. The CGC-witness from my LCS went with me and stood in line with me to witness the signing. BUT... he also slipped his own personal book into my hands for George to sign and remark, which was a big no-no for CGC-witnesses to do. But he did it anyway. That same guy was later dropped from CGC for several improper/crooked dealings (switching his own personal lower-grade books with clients and keeping their higher-grade books).

Lastly, again as an aside, at a different con I had three books for Zeck & Beatty to sign, which the CGC-witness watched and took possession of immediately. Months later I get the books back in green labels. The witness forgot to put BOTH names on the SS submission form, so Beatty's name was incorrectly unverified. Luckily the witness was local and so I showed him and he immediately took them and sent them off to be corrected. 

Anyways, I've never been to a Stan Lee SS-signing at a con (been to three) that WASN'T a complete monkey-circus. 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by jcjames

[shadroch]

On 5/25/2022 at 10:45 AM, DougC said:

Wife/Manager/Secretarial signatures are very prevalent in other industries throughout history and today. Comics is one of the few places where your more likely to find a real signature on a raw book than a fake one (especially if it is on the first page).

Not a quarter goes by in the retail book industry where an autographed exclusive isn't found out to be an autopen (Barnes & Noble are the worst for these). In the sports industry many players have their managers or wives sign cards/sticker sheets, it isn't even a secret any more. Even presidents/first ladies like the Obama's autopenned their books, Trump is prolific in using autopen and has a database of templates.

Obviously big names are going to be forged but when comics gets to the point that Fingeroth, Shooter, Mhan, or Totleben have previously created autopen templates we have to data base and compare, then we have really made it to the big time.

 

They don't charge big bucks for limited edition autographed copies.  If I pay $79.99 for a $2 comic that is signed by the artist, a secretarial signature is not acceptable. 

 

[shadroch]

On 5/25/2022 at 3:18 PM, wisbyron said:

I was sadly not there with ol' Glen and Kirby, especially as I was 10.

My point is, I know what you refer to and it's being taken out of context. Kirby's arthritis had made his drawing sketches and such decline by the late Eighties, but he still had to sign legal documents and such and would make loose sketches for his Grandchildren up to 1992. What Glen said was about a specific instance. But you think what you want- a guy that created the vast backbone of the industry you all can't let go, a guy who literally killed Nazis in the second World War, by all means, put the unproven speculation out there and infer that he's a despicable millionaire. The irony is fantastic. 

What was KIrbys house on the Pacific worth?  A quick google search indicates he left an estate  of between ten and twenty million dollars when he died in 1994 so if anyone wants to claim he wasn't a millionaire in 1990/91, I think it is on them to provide proof. 

Millionaire or not, legend or not, accepting thousands of dollars to sign books and not signing them sucks. I can't believe anyone would try to defend it. 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by shadroch

[Sigur Ros]

On 5/25/2022 at 6:14 PM, wisbyron said:

 

It's dangerous to just put out false stuff based on hearsay or something you heard a guy say once; but it's a very attractive narrative to disparage Kirby in every way so none of this is surprising. 

"Dangerous" how? 

[kav]

On 5/25/2022 at 3:20 PM, jcjames said:

It was not at all rectified, not at least into 2014 and 2016. 

I had Stan Lee sign several books at several cons during those years and it was pure chaos.

My books went from my hands, to Stan's table to sign, then back into my hands, and then I carried them about 50-100ft away from the signing area, by myself, to then stand in line to get them checked in for CGC-SS.

The line was about 20-30 people long, so there we stood, our signed books in-hand waiting for maybe 10 minutes to get to the check-in.

There is no WAY anyone but me could know which books Stan had actually signed, or if ANY of them were legit Stan sigs. This happened in at least three cons I went to from 2014 to end of 2016. I seriously wanted to shoot a video of the monkey-circus that was the Stan Lee CGC-Verification charade, but I was fairly new to the CGC-SS game so I didn't sound any alarms. 

As an aside, at another con I went to (maybe 2017) I had two books for George Perez to sign. The CGC-witness from my LCS went with me and stood in line with me to witness the signing. BUT... he also slipped his own personal book into my hands for George to sign and remark, which was a big no-no for CGC-witnesses to do. But he did it anyway. That same guy was later dropped from CGC for several improper/crooked dealings (switching his own personal lower-grade books with clients and keeping their higher-grade books).

Lastly, again as an aside, at a different con I had three books for Zeck & Beatty to sign, which the CGC-witness watched and took possession of immediately. Months later I get the books back in green labels. The witness forgot to put BOTH names on the SS submission form, so Beatty's name was incorrectly unverified. Luckily the witness was local and so I showed him and he immediately took them and sent them off to be corrected. 

Anyways, I've never been to a Stan Lee SS-signing at a con (been to three) that WASN'T a complete monkey-circus. 

 

 

@Buzzetta

[James J Johnson]

On 5/25/2022 at 1:28 PM, mrwoogieman said:

Has me wondering about this signed print 

 

 

This would have me wondering too. Wondering about why Kirby would draw, not write; draw, an oddly segmented and shaky 4 piece 'J' with atypical lift points indicative of starting and stopping. And why, as an artist, with all that white area to sign in, why he would start his signature so close to the portraiture and at an angle that the top of his sugnature would run into the portraiture and his imprinted signature. 

Also, the signature appears to be drawn, not written; drawn, in very close proximity to the imprinted signature to make copying it an easier task. IMO, odds of this being by a hand other than Kirby = 80/20. Lots of red flags here, IMO 

Edited May 26, 2022 by James J Johnson