is closed closet humidity worse than open area? 0

[bronze_rules]

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate sub-forum are for this specific question, but I"m sure the knowledge is helpful to everyone here.

I live in an area that has fairly high relative humidity (esp. when windows are closed) on the order of 60%+  This is not great for paper products.

If I have to open and close windows in the day and evening, this causes temperature/humidity fluctuations. Also not great for paper products.

Ideally, I'd like an area of constant low(er) humidity. I have a dehumidifier, but do not wish to run it all day, as it is not cost efficient.

Not really a big fan of the damp-rid products, as I feel like they could be simply concentrating and redistributing moisture in the room (no proof though).

I started being more analytical about it, as I purchased a set of hygrometers and placed them around various areas of the house and monitored what is going on.

What I found very interesting is that I have an enclosed (door closed) closet that has a very constant RH of around 50%. This while other rooms are fluctuating between 45 to 65 depending on open/closed windows and dynamic conditions.

Everything I read seems to point that closets are bad because of lack of air circulation, yet I observed that empirical data in reality.

Any one else experience this or have thoughts on it?

 

I should add that I"ve also seem some suggest to run a light source in the closet to help dissipate moisture. On the other hand, people say direct sunlight is terrible.

Maybe the nature of the light spectrum from a regular light bulb is less of an issue?

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by bronze_rules

[James J Johnson]

2 hours ago, bronze_rules said:

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate sub-forum are for this specific question, but I"m sure the knowledge is helpful to everyone here.

I live in an area that has fairly high relative humidity (esp. when windows are closed) on the order of 60%+  This is not great for paper products.

If I have to open and close windows in the day and evening, this causes temperature/humidity fluctuations. Also not great for paper products.

Ideally, I'd like an area of constant low(er) humidity. I have a dehumidifier, but do not wish to run it all day, as it is not cost efficient.

Not really a big fan of the damp-rid products, as I feel like they could be simply concentrating and redistributing moisture in the room (no proof though).

I started being more analytical about it, as I purchased a set of hygrometers and placed them around various areas of the house and monitored what is going on.

What I found very interesting is that I have an enclosed (door closed) closet that has a very constant RH of around 50%. This while other rooms are fluctuating between 45 to 65 depending on open/closed windows and dynamic conditions.

Everything I read seems to point that closets are bad because of lack of air circulation, yet I observed that empirical data in reality.

Any one else experience this or have thoughts on it?

 

I should add that I"ve also seem some suggest to run a light source in the closet to help dissipate moisture. On the other hand, people say direct sunlight is terrible.

Maybe the nature of the light spectrum from a regular light bulb is less of an issue?

 

My guess is that you're somewhere in central Florida? Maybe the Ocala area? Or a place that has a similarly consistent "rain-forest" like humidity level? Rain in the AM, clearing, and then rain again, typically, followed by a hazy, steamy sunny day?

[Buzzetta]

I think it was Shadroch that pointed out that many of the issues that are circulating amongst collectors were for years, stored in no less conditions than stacked, raw, in a box.  

So... anything ahs got to be better than that.

[bronze_rules]

1 hour ago, Buzzetta said:

I think it was Shadroch that pointed out that many of the issues that are circulating amongst collectors were for years, stored in no less conditions than stacked, raw, in a box.  

So... anything ahs got to be better than that.

@James Johnson, West Coast Not East

@Buzzetta, not so sure about that. I was thinking about Church collection from Colorodo, where rel humidity ranges somewhere between 35 to 70, compared to other areas ranging from 70 to 80.

Assuming one is already in a very low humidity environment, sure I would assume you can leave it in a box and hit the optimal storage conditions lottery.  When you are in an area that is constantly higher then 40-50 rel humidity conditions, it seems that more measures are needed.

What prompted me is that (I have an even larger collection of text books) some books felt funny (damp?), so I measured samples with a moisture meter and they were a bit high.  I have some situations where humidity is difficult to avoid. Hence the observations I posted. Really hoping more with experience can chime in. I'm most specifically interested in experience with the closet/enclosed space vs open question I originally posed.

 

As an aside, years ago I saw some guy selling comics on some street and pulled over. I looked at what he had (some nice bronze), and they were literally soaked. He said they were well stored and wanted full guide for them. Oddly enough, some people were buying left and right. I high tailed it outta there. I can't stand damp books of any kind; makes me squeamish.

Edited February 21, 2020 by bronze_rules

[lizards2]

Where are you at on the West Coast?  Generally...., 

[marvelmaniac]

Just thought i would throw this out there...

If a comic book is placed in a bag and stored in a comic box there is no air circulation around the book anyway, also, there is some air circulation in a closet, it is not a hermetically sealed environment, I actually have an air return duct in my bedroom closet.

The key is to keep temp and humidity as Constant as possible, the more the book has to expand/contract/react/change to its environment the faster the acids in the print and paper are released leading to faster decay of the book, will it happen quickly, in your lifetime???

The only things i have seen that degrade a book quickly are UV and Water.

[Krismusic]

8 minutes ago, marvelmaniac said:

Just thought i would throw this out there...

If a comic book is placed in a bag and stored in a comic box there is no air circulation around the book anyway, also, there is some air circulation in a closet, it is not a hermetically sealed environment, I actually have an air return duct in my bedroom closet.

The key is to keep temp and humidity as Constant as possible, the more the book has to expand/contract/react/change to its environment the faster the acids in the print and paper are released leading to faster decay of the book, will it happen quickly, in your lifetime???

The only things i have seen that degrade a book quickly are UV and Water.

you missed heat as well.. Those are the three that I know that degrade a book quickly.

[bronze_rules]

To give you guys a little better sense of why location can be bad or great, or what I'm calling the location lottery -- here is a contour map of relative humidity in the US.Notice Colorodo where the Church collection was simply stored is right in the sweet spot of 35 degrees relative humidity. Whereas, you can see the West coast has lots of 70 to 80 degree average RH (makes sense as there are large bodies of water nearby). One more thing I would add is that I measured RH in a barnes and nobles bookstore (40 -45%) and local library (35 - 40 %)... I'm sure those guys don't use expensive systems with those RH levels by chance.  So the rest of us are stuck with paying electricity to run fans or dedicated dehumidifier (dry) setups.

Also attached some comments about managing RH in museums.. Even though the absolute range can vary between 40 - 60, the fluctuations are killer (limit to +/- 3%).

LOC mentions 35% RH good.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by bronze_rules

[Callaway29]

I’ve done a lot of digging on this as well and came to a similar conclusion. Omitting extremes, consistency is just as important as the actual temp/RH conditions.

[bronze_rules]

31 minutes ago, Callaway29 said:

I’ve done a lot of digging on this as well and came to a similar conclusion. Omitting extremes, consistency is just as important as the actual temp/RH conditions.

Right. That's why the closet phenomenon surprised me. I open/close the windows and get RH fluctuations 45 to 65... terrible fluctuations vs leaving windows closed and getting 65 all day (bad too).

Yet, that closet (no outer walls only inside) is able to maintain almost rock solid constant RH of 50 (without dedicated dehumidifiers). I want to just leave them there, but trying to make sure I'm not fooling myself.

I have RH historical chart/data logging and RF hygrometers placed around the house.

Edited February 25, 2020 by bronze_rules

[ADAMANTIUM]

10 minutes ago, bronze_rules said:

To give you guys a little better sense of why location can be bad or great, or what I'm calling the location lottery -- here is a contour map of relative humidity in the US.Notice Colorodo where the Church collection was simply stored is right in the sweet spot of 35 degrees relative humidity. Whereas, you can see the West coast has lots of 70 to 80 degree average RH (makes sense as there are large bodies of water nearby). One more thing I would add is that I measured RH in a barnes and nobles bookstore (45%) and local library (35 - 40 %)... I'm sure those guys don't use expensive systems with those RH levels by chance.  So the rest of us are stuck with paying electricity to run fans or dedicated dehumidifier (dry) setups.

Cue smart alec reply, "well, why don't you move to Colorodo then?" 5...4...3....

 

 

Looks like Dallas Texas is 45-50... I takes my chances idk

[Callaway29]

33 minutes ago, bronze_rules said:

Right. That's why the closet phenomenon surprised me. I open/close the windows and get RH fluctuations 45 to 65... terrible fluctuations vs leaving windows closed and getting 65 all day (bad too).

Yet, that closet (no outer walls only inside) is able to maintain almost rock solid constant RH of 50 (without dedicated dehumidifiers). I want to just leave them there, but trying to make sure I'm not fooling myself.

I have RH historical chart/data logging and RF hygrometers placed around the house.

Inner closet for me too. 

[bronze_rules]

Here's some good news about the enclosed closet space (microclimate) and resilience to RH fluctuations! This flies in the face of much of the common literature saying not to store paper/books in closed spaces.

"Placing the object in a cabinet, drawer or box can slow equilibration lessening the likelihood of mechanical decay. Within a confined space, objects act as a buffer, dampening the RH oscillation. "

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by bronze_rules

[Lurker89]

All I know is mold is the only thing I fear in this world. Moisture breeds mold... Mold is everywhere.... IT'S EVERYWHERE ... Humidity is moisture run.. RUN!!! HIDE THE BOOKS IN THE DESERT IT'S THE ONLY WAY!!