The Pure Hate in this Article is Astounding 1 1

[RockMyAmadeus]

6 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

On 2/29/2020 at 9:07 AM, RockMyAmadeus said:

"You guys who read comics? Yeah, you'll have to do it digitally, or wait for the trade to come out. This book's for people to make money on, not read!"

I think you are quoting something I did not say.

For the retailer the book is for selling. He is refusing to do this as he doesnt like what some people do with it after. I think he should be able to do this, I do not think it is a good way to do business.

It's a paraphrase, not a quote. As has been explained already at some length in this thread, the comics industry is a shadow of what it used to be. That's because people...speculeeches...come in and scoop everything up so they can flip the book for profit. This denies the reader a chance to buy the book. Do you think the speculeeches will magically turn into readers...? They do not. You won't see them again until the next "hot book" comes to town.

Meanwhile, your readers get frustrated and stop buying altogether. And that's why the best selling books in the industry struggle to sell 100,000 copies in a nation (continent, really) of over 350,000,000 people.

Obviously, the goal is to sell everything, yes. But what you're not understanding is that if you drive away readers, your business will fail. The speculeeches do not care.

Edited March 2, 2020 by RockMyAmadeus

[Mike's Rack]

If the book is intended to make a profit for the LCS, do flippers mind if the LSC pulls all copies except pull box orders and auctions them on eBay?

[IbukiLord]

Geez the market here is so different to over there, my LCS had plenty of Batman #89 cover A and B, they had it on shelf for cover price until the weekend at which point they priced it from cvr A R89 to R350 and CVR B R150 to R300, after the weekend it went from cvr A R350 to R650 and cvr B R300 to R600.

A friend of mine wanted it but missed out and didn't want to pay that much but we spent some cash at the store over the weekend and got him to open up a pull list at which point the owner gave him both cvr A and B for R300 which was basically launch price.

 

Hell Arisen #3 on the othe rhand they only ordered for call orders and a little extra all of which sold out. Don't think anyone buying here was buying to flip because being as secluded as we are you can't really flip the book for much.

[nickdemeato]

42 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

It's a paraphrase, not a quote. As has been explained already at some length in this thread, the comics industry is a shadow of what it used to be. That's because people...speculeeches...come in and scoop everything up so they can flip the book for profit. This denies the reader a chance to buy the book. Do you think the speculeeches will magically turn into readers...? They do not. You won't see them again until the next "hot book" comes to town.

Meanwhile, your readers get frustrated and stop buying altogether. And that's why the best selling books in the industry struggle to sell 100,000 copies in a nation (continent, really) of over 350,000,000 people.

Obviously, the goal is to sell everything, yes. But what you're not understanding is that if you drive away readers, your business will fail. The speculeeches do not care.

Cool cool. Should it be in quotation marks then? --------> Thats a genuine question I dont know the answer to.  Not trying to pick a fight

Yeah I get you, but you have assumed that all who speculate never read a comic. Have you really never talked to someone who was not well off and would flip to be able to keep reading? Is it really that bad that some poor kid sees a book in a shop he can flip and be able to afford his pull list the next month. (Also I am assuming you are using speculeeches to cover all who flip, not just those advanced ordering as that is not the issue here)

Is it really beyond a retailer to put some of a hot book aside, when they realise its hot, for their customers? For them to manage their shop how they need to?

If we split it into advanced order people and buy in the shop after release people. How does someone ordering in advance hurt the shop? They dont do they? (unless they dont pay, but you would take deposits for big advanced orders). The person buying in the shop can only buy what is available, on a shelf or a rack. They can only buy what they are able to. Manage your own shop.

It defo cant be good for business to be telling current and potential customers to F off though. Work with your staff on how to deal with it. Dont put a sweary article on bleeding cool.

(I dont know if you have a shop or not, assume I am always talking about a retailer not you you )

 

[mec3437]

11 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

Yeah I get you, but you have assumed that all who speculate never read a comic. Have you really never talked to someone who was not well off and would flip to be able to keep reading? Is it really that bad that some poor kid sees a book in a shop he can flip and be able to afford his pull list the next month. (Also I am assuming you are using speculeeches to cover all who flip, not just those advanced ordering as that is not the issue here)

 

I get what you're going for, but if someone has to flip a comic to be able to afford their pull list then it might be time to step back and reevaluate their financial status.  

[RockMyAmadeus]

7 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

Yeah I get you, but you have assumed that all who speculate never read a comic. Have you really never talked to someone who was not well off and would flip to be able to keep reading? Is it really that bad that some poor kid sees a book in a shop he can flip and be able to afford his pull list the next month. 

Yes. It is. As someone who has worked in and around the industry for 30+ years, what you're suggesting is pure fiction; it doesn't happen. If someone is "not well off", why are they wasting their money on comics in the first place...? That's nothing more than gambling.

[RockMyAmadeus]

15 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

Is it really beyond a retailer to put some of a hot book aside, when they realise its hot, for their customers? For them to manage their shop how they need to?

If we split it into advanced order people and buy in the shop after release people. How does someone ordering in advance hurt the shop? They dont do they? (unless they dont pay, but you would take deposits for big advanced orders). The person buying in the shop can only buy what is available, on a shelf or a rack. They can only buy what they are able to. Manage your own shop.

It defo cant be good for business to be telling current and potential customers to F off though. Work with your staff on how to deal with it. Dont put a sweary article on bleeding cool.

(I dont know if you have a shop or not, assume I am always talking about a retailer not you you )

You've never owned a comic book store, right...?

I recommend reading the excellent book "The Comic Book Wars" by Dan Raviv. It touches on a lot of why the comics market imploded in the 90s.

https://www.amazon.com/Comic-Wars-Marvels-Battle-Survival/dp/0785116060

[mrwoogieman]

Let's not pretend that speculeeches are the reason that the comics market is in the dumper. Yes, it's a reason, but it's not even close to the top of the list.

 

[Bookery]

Gotta kind of go along with nickdemeato on this.  There's nothing that the "speculators" can do in my shop that I don't allow them to.  Once I make sure all want-lists are filled, I can either put the other copies out on the rack and limit one to a customer, or I can set them behind the counter for customers I know who might want one, even if they didn't get it onto their pull-list (That's more or less what we did... we often put copies in files because we know a customer has a certain interest, say a cover theme, even if it wasn't put on file by them... they are under no obligation on these, so can buy them or reject them).  Once all files are pulled, if any books are bounced back to us, or the file never picked up, then I feel free to price the books at whatever I want.  But file copies are always cover price (minus 20% in our shop), no matter how hot a book is.  

Now I understand what the other side is saying... a non-customer, newbie, wanders off the street wanting a copy, and can't because they are sold out.  This is pretty rare anymore, and becoming a bit of a myth... the odds of someone new wandering in and wanting a book unaware of the hype around it is a long shot.  At any rate, whose fault is it that it's unavailable?  Not the "speculators" who are either limited to one copy, or can't get one because it's sold out for them as well.  The fault lies in publishers who create sudden hype, or release a wave of media publicity AFTER the final cut-off date for ordering.  I'm hard pressed to think of another industry that does this... purposefully limit their own sales (and mine) by not making critical information about an issue available until it's too late.  There wouldn't be any speculators gobbling up copies because they wouldn't be going for premiums had everyone known enough to order plenty (example: Walking Dead finale, etc.).

[theCapraAegagrus]

Idk. I wanted to get a copy of Batman: Damned #1 way back when, but because of the Batwang hype, I couldn't get one for weeks because they were overpriced at $40/pop.

I can't "see" the validity of the other side when all I wanted to do was read the frickin' comic.

[shadroch]

The author has literally been " tilting at windmills" since the early 1990s. He's been writing about the ills of the industry long before many of us were even aware of the problem. 

[nickdemeato]

2 hours ago, mec3437 said:

I get what you're going for, but if someone has to flip a comic to be able to afford their pull list then it might be time to step back and reevaluate their financial status.  

Cheers, but just because you work within a budget does not mean you are in danger of being evicted.

He walks into a store and he sees Hells Arisen #3 cover price. He knows he can sell it for $x. He does so and comes back next week and gets a trade or that titty statue he had his eye on. Has that been a bad thing or a good thing for the comic shop? I understand he may not spend it there at all but the idea that everyone who would do that is some mass drain sucking the very life out of the industry. That guys putting back in.

Also they may only be 9, trying to fund their hobby that their parents think is just dumb comics,so they are happy to get rid of them on ebay... No titty statue for them tho

I probably shouldnt have said for the pull list that gave the wrong idea. Supplement.. buy more comics? Some people just want to buy more comics. I hear they are very good.

[nickdemeato]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Yes. It is. As someone who has worked in and around the industry for 30+ years, what you're suggesting is pure fiction; it doesn't happen. If someone is "not well off", why are they wasting their money on comics in the first place...? That's nothing more than gambling.

No one just reads comics? No children buy spiderman? In over 30 years youve never seen anyone reading for fun? Who only had a limited budget to work with treating it as a hobby. Not starving or living on the streets. Just working within a budget.

"Ah man I wanted to start reading that Superior spiderman trade but it will have to wait until next month, not if I sell that Hells Arisen #3 it wont"

Never?

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

You've never owned a comic book store, right...?

I recommend reading the excellent book "The Comic Book Wars" by Dan Raviv. It touches on a lot of why the comics market imploded in the 90s.

https://www.amazon.com/Comic-Wars-Marvels-Battle-Survival/dp/0785116060

Never ever. I have worked in retail for 20 years. I dont see why running a comic shop day to day would be any different. I understand about the advanced ordering I asked Diamond to send me information about opening an account. Then wised up super quick.

Would it not be fair to say the publishers have learned from their mistakes? Theres more 2nd printings now, more 5th printings. It feels more like they are just filling demand. Orders for later print hits a certain order level no more copies. No massive overprints, although you could name a couple I dont know. Dont get me wrong the variants for #1s are getting a little out of hand and we are back at the card stock, foil cover stage which is a little worrying. With the mouse in the house at Marvel would it not take a massive event for something to go wrong there. Are DC backed/owned by WB or is that a colaberation?

Depending on how much you value Comichron numbers the market is growing. How much is spec or how much of the market is readers who really knows. Comichron also say digital sales grew from 25m in 2011 to 100m in 2014, dropped off to 90m then back up to 100m in 2018.

Ive found that book on the UK Amazon, I will give it a read, thanks.

[F For Fake]

Although I'm not always a fan of his writing style (can be a bit condescending...I don't mind the potty language. I'm a professional swearer myself) I'd say I agree with Hibbs' take 99% of the time, including this one. 

[valiantman]

But what happens when a limited cover of the third printing becomes the most desired "variant"?

(Saga #1, we're all looking at you.)  

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, nickdemeato said:

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Yes. It is. As someone who has worked in and around the industry for 30+ years, what you're suggesting is pure fiction; it doesn't happen. If someone is "not well off", why are they wasting their money on comics in the first place...? That's nothing more than gambling.

No one just reads comics? No children buy spiderman? In over 30 years youve never seen anyone reading for fun? Who only had a limited budget to work with treating it as a hobby. Not starving or living on the streets. Just working within a budget.

"Ah man I wanted to start reading that Superior spiderman trade but it will have to wait until next month, not if I sell that Hells Arisen #3 it wont"

Never?

If you're going to move the goalposts, how can anyone be expected to answer?

So those children are going to buy a copy of Hell Arisen #3, flip it on eBay, so they can afford to buy another comic...? So the person reading for fun is going to do the same? 

You're constructing straw men and knocking them down. That's not how it works.

And you're fine with denying someone who actually DOES want to read Hell Arisen #3, so someone else can make money off of it...? 

4 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

Never ever.

Sure, which is why you don't understand the special rigors that comics retailers go to just to stay afloat. There's a whole separate discussion about whether they should, but that's for another thread. You should go to a Diamond Retailer Summit...it's pretty eye opening.

6 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

Theres more 2nd printings now, more 5th printings. I

So that poor reader is denied access to the book, just so someone else can profit...? And if they don't want to read digital, because they prefer holding a copy in their hands...? Too bad, so sad.

I'm labeling this ahead of time, so there's no misunderstanding: this is a paraphrase "too bad, reader, you have to wait for a reprint, cuz there's CASH to be made, sucka!!"

And you don't understand how and why that frustrates readers and drives them away...?

I should not have had to...on the day of release!...try to scramble to get a copy of Walking Dead #193 because Robert Kirkman wanted to play games, and be told "it's selling for $30 online!" as if I cared. I will NEVER buy another Kirkman book new because of it. I supported him by buying my copy, month in and month out, for several years. And because speculeeches just HAD to make that extra $20, I couldn't buy a SINGLE COPY. On the DAY OF RELEASE. ANYWHERE.

Wash, rinse, repeat, over and over and over, and you destroy an entire industry.

 

[nickdemeato]

3 hours ago, BL4Z3 said:

So eff those ruiners of the hobby.

Yes it is, because you don't seem to understand how ordering comics works.

I understand how it works.

3 hours ago, BL4Z3 said:

How does he do this, pull extra copies out if his butt?

No, he can only deal with the issues he has, in his shop. Fills his pull orders then does as Bookery says. Maybe he can order or take orders for later prints.

3 hours ago, BL4Z3 said:

Why can't they start a pull list and order copies in advance?

Youve really never missed something in previews that turned out to be something you might want to read?

[Deadpoolica]

[nickdemeato]

18 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

If you're going to move the goalposts, how can anyone be expected to answer?

So those children are going to buy a copy of Hell Arisen #3, flip it on eBay, so they can afford to buy another comic...? So the person reading for fun is going to do the same? 

You're constructing straw men and knocking them down. That's not how it works.

And you're fine with denying someone who actually DOES want to read Hell Arisen #3, so someone else can make money off of it...? 

Sure, which is why you don't understand the special rigors that comics retailers go to just to stay afloat. There's a whole separate discussion about whether they should, but that's for another thread. You should go to a Diamond Retailer Summit...it's pretty eye opening.

So that poor reader is denied access to the book, just so someone else can profit...? And if they don't want to read digital, because they prefer holding a copy in their hands...? Too bad, so sad.

I'm labeling this ahead of time, so there's no misunderstanding: this is a paraphrase "too bad, reader, you have to wait for a reprint, cuz there's CASH to be made, sucka!!"

And you don't understand how and why that frustrates readers and drives them away...?

I should not have had to...on the day of release!...try to scramble to get a copy of Walking Dead #193 because Robert Kirkman wanted to play games, and be told "it's selling for $30 online!" as if I cared. I will NEVER buy another Kirkman book new because of it. I supported him by buying my copy, month in and month out, for several years. And because speculeeches just HAD to make that extra $20, I couldn't buy a SINGLE COPY. On the DAY OF RELEASE. ANYWHERE.

Wash, rinse, repeat, over and over and over, and you destroy an entire industry.

 

I said

Yeah I get you, but you have assumed that all who speculate never read a comic. Have you really never talked to someone who was not well off and would flip to be able to keep reading? Is it really that bad that some poor kid sees a book in a shop he can flip and be able to afford his pull list the next month. 

you said

Yes. It is. As someone who has worked in and around the industry for 30+ years, what you're suggesting is pure fiction; it doesn't happen. If someone is "not well off", why are they wasting their money on comics in the first place...? That's nothing more than gambling.

I said

No one just reads comics? No children buy spiderman? In over 30 years youve never seen anyone reading for fun? Who only had a limited budget to work with treating it as a hobby. Not starving or living on the streets. Just working within a budget.

"Ah man I wanted to start reading that Superior spiderman trade but it will have to wait until next month, not if I sell that Hells Arisen #3 it wont"

Never?

Both times Im talking about someone who reads comics who may flip one for some extra comic cash. I dont believe I moved the goalposts. I think because I said speculate in the 1st sentence then start a 2nd where Im talking about the flip you thought that I was talking about some poor kid buying 50 copys of the new ASM#1. Which is why you say gambling. That is not what I am talking about. Like in the superior spiderman example. Sorry if its not clear.

I Am fine with someone missing out on wanting to get the comic and someone getting it who wants to rip it up into little bits then do a fun dance around it. You will never understand how little I could care about why people buy what they buy.

If the comic shop, web or brick, doesnt catch on and do what is best for their customers they cannot point the finger at someone who put money in their till.

For your personal WD193 issue problem I was right there with you. I couldnt get one either. So I waited.

So those children are going to buy a copy of Hell Arisen #3, flip it on eBay, so they can afford to buy another comic...? So the person reading for fun is going to do the same? 

I mean, in this case they might. Its a 4 part series. Not setting the world on fire. Read #4 and get the set listed. Maybe that would pay for another 4 part series next month. The price is going to drop off.

So that poor reader is denied access to the book, just so someone else can profit...?

Yeah, some people miss out. For whatever reason the other person bought the book. To donate to charity, cause they just liked the cover or because they wanted to sell it.

If people cant get the paper copy and want to read the story that bad they can use the digital. I understand the digital doesnt help the comic shop, but if the argument is people need to read the story, then they can. If its that doesnt help the comic shop your right. This is why the comic shop should do as Bookery said in their post.

I understand that people not getting what they want is a problem, but this is the comic book industry delays in getting what you want should be expected at this point.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Quoting using the mechanism of the board would make it easier to follow the conversation.

18 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

Both times Im talking about someone who reads comics who may flip one for some extra comic cash. I dont believe I moved the goalposts.

You did. Children are not capable of flipping comics, because they are children, and aren't allowed to sell.

18 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

you thought that I was talking about some poor kid buying 50 copys of the new ASM#1.

Nope. It can be a single copy. The point is what happens next, not how many you buy.

18 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

I Am fine with someone missing out on wanting to get the comic and someone getting it who wants to rip it up into little bits then do a fun dance around it. You will never understand how little I could care about why people buy what they buy.

And that's why you don't understand why retailers have a problem with people buying who have no intention...and history has borne this out...of becoming regular customers.

18 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

If the comic shop, web or brick, doesnt catch on and do what is best for their customers they cannot point the finger at someone who put money in their till.

 

Sure they can. Why? Because that someone will not be around next month to put money in their till. And, the reader who missed out on that copy gives up.

So, instead of having two sales of two issues, you have a single sale of a single issue. Yay for shortsightedness.

Wash, rinse, repeat, and there goes an entire industry.

18 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

I mean, in this case they might. Its a 4 part series. Not setting the world on fire. Read #4 and get the set listed. Maybe that would pay for another 4 part series next month. The price is going to drop off.

Yeah, children cannot legally enter into contracts, so I'm not sure why you think the kid who reads Spiderman is going to flip a copy of Hell Arisen #3 to fund his future purchases.

18 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

Yeah, some people miss out. For whatever reason the other person bought the book. To donate to charity, cause they just liked the cover or because they wanted to sell it.

And that is how you kill an industry. You don't understand that it's not about why the "other person bought the book"...it's that the other person isn't coming back to buy the next one.

And, now, neither is the first one.

18 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

If people cant get the paper copy and want to read the story that bad they can use the digital.

Paraphrase alert: "you want a copy? Too bad! This one's fer MAKIN' CASH! You can just go buy that digital one if you want it so bad!!"

And that is how you kill an industry.

18 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

I understand the digital doesnt help the comic shop, but if the argument is people need to read the story, then they can.

You tell 'em. Those dummies want to read the story in the format they like can go jump off a cliff. You'll read it in digital or not at all!!

18 minutes ago, nickdemeato said:

but this is the comic book industry delays in getting what you want should be expected at this point.

Wha....?

There is no delay. The book has already been printed. It's already been made. It's been shipped. There's no need to anyone to have to wait...except speculeech greed.

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by RockMyAmadeus