Bronze Age 9.8's 3 3

[Xenosmilus]

I was curious on peoples thoughts if they think there are still a lot of ungraded early/mid bronze age 9.8's out there?  I ask because some of the prices are getting pretty high. In a lot of the cases it's because of low census numbers.  Are these census numbers truly low or are there still a lot more out there?

[lou_fine]

As we all should well know by now, there are a whole lot more slightly lower condition raw BA books that are just waiting to be maximized to their full potential (i.e. a grade of CGC 9.8 hopefully) as long as you are willing to play their game.    

[RockMyAmadeus]

18 hours ago, Xenosmilus said:

I was curious on peoples thoughts if they think there are still a lot of ungraded early/mid bronze age 9.8's out there?  I ask because some of the prices are getting pretty high. In a lot of the cases it's because of low census numbers.  Are these census numbers truly low or are there still a lot more out there?

There is a tremendous difference between early to mid bronze (1970-1975) and late bronze (1975-1980) in 9.8.

Mostly it's due to the development of collecting in the 70s. Some of it is due to the poorer quality of paper and other products (ink, sizing) that went into production in the early 70s.

Post 1975 9.8s are easy. Pre 1975...? Much, much harder. You will not see a doubling (or more) in the numbers of books like ASM #129, Defenders #1, FF #112, etc. in 9.8. They just don't exist. 

For example...I've submitted maybe 1000-1500 Bronze Age books. From 1975-up, I've gotten maybe 300-400 9.8s.

Before 1975?

0

Not one. Zilch. Nada. Lots of 9.0s, 9.2s, 9.4s, and even 9.6s. Zero 9.8s. 

[seanfingh]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

There is a tremendous difference between early to mid bronze (1970-1975) and late bronze (1975-1980) in 9.8.

Mostly it's due to the development of collecting in the 70s. Some of it is due to the poorer quality of paper and other products (ink, sizing) that went into production in the early 70s.

Post 1975 9.8s are easy. Pre 1975...? Much, much harder. You will not see a doubling (or more) in the numbers of books like ASM #129, Defenders #1, FF #112, etc. in 9.8. They just don't exist. 

For example...I've submitted maybe 1000-1500 Bronze Age books. From 1975-up, I've gotten maybe 300-400 9.8s.

Before 1975?

0

Not one. Zilch. Nada. Lots of 9.0s, 9.2s, 9.4s, and even 9.6s. Zero 9.8s. 

As a follow up to this post, I have gotten some pre-1975 9.8s - most of them were warehouse books or known hoard books OMAC 1, Thor 199 for example. But I have also had multiple 20 cent 9.8s including several issues of PLOP!, some DC war books and a couple of Superboys. No keys, and nothing that would really blow anyone's skirt up.  I also don't think I have ever gotten a pre-1975 Marvel bronze 9.8   

[valiantman]

Current CGC Census (9.8+):

1965	0.7%
1966	1.2%
1967	1.6%
1968	2.1%
1969	2.8%
1970	3.6%
1971	3.9%
1972	6%
1973	7%
1974	7%
1975	8%
1976	12%
1977	16%
1978	24%
1979	24%

Edited March 3, 2020 by valiantman
updated to decimal points for under 5%

[valiantman]

Just looking at the top "key" (most submitted) books per year:

1970	Batman 227
1970	Conan the Barbarian 1
1970	Green Lantern 76
1970	Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen 134
1971	Amazing Spider-Man 100
1971	Amazing Spider-Man 101
1971	Batman 232
1971	Fantastic Four 112
1971	House of Secrets 92
1972	All Star Western 10
1972	Marvel Spotlight 5
1973	Amazing Spider-Man 121
1973	Amazing Spider-Man 122
1973	Iron Man 55
1973	Tomb of Dracula 10
1974	Amazing Spider-Man 129
1974	Incredible Hulk 180
1974	Incredible Hulk 181
1975	Giant-Size X-Men 1
1975	Werewolf By Night 32
1975	X-Men 94
1976	All-Star Comics 58
1976	Daredevil 131
1976	Marvel Preview 4
1976	Spectacular Spider-Man 1
1976	X-Men 101
1977	Iron Fist 14
1977	Star Wars 1
1977	Star Wars 1 35 Cent Price Variant
1978	Cerebus the Aardvark 1
1978	Ms. Marvel 18
1978	Spider-Woman 1
1979	Amazing Spider-Man 194
1979	Daredevil 158
1979	Spectacular Spider-Man 27
1980	Avengers 196
1980	DC Comics Presents 26
1980	New Teen Titans 2
1980	Savage She-Hulk 1
1980	Star Wars 42
1980	X-Men 137

The percentages for CGC 9.8+ are:

1970	1.2%
1971	1.5%
1972	0.3%
1973	1.8%
1974	1.2%
1975	1.4%
1976	7.3%
1977	6.5%
1978	18.9%
1979	8.4%
1980	19.6%

 

[lou_fine]

Definitely sad to see that Avengers 93 with the beautiful squarebound 52-pager Adams cover and interior art become seemingly one of the lost and forgotten keys of the BA, because it was certainly one of the real go to and must have books books back in the day.  

If I remember correctly, it was also probably one of the most expensive, if not the leading BA book in terms of valuation back then.  Definitely not the case anymore.  

Edited March 3, 2020 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

43 minutes ago, seanfingh said:

I have gotten some pre-1975 9.8s - most of them were warehouse books or known hoard books OMAC 1, Thor 199 for example.

I also don't think I have ever gotten a pre-1975 Marvel bronze 9.8   

Are you not directly contradicting yourself here?    

Edited March 3, 2020 by lou_fine

[valiantman]

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

Just looking at the top "key" (most submitted) books per year:

1975	Werewolf By Night 32
1975	X-Men 94
1976	All-Star Comics 58
1976	Daredevil 131
1976	Marvel Preview 4
1976	Spectacular Spider-Man 1
1976	X-Men 101
1977	Iron Fist 14
1977	Star Wars 1
1977	Star Wars 1 35 Cent Price Variant
1978	Cerebus the Aardvark 1
1978	Ms. Marvel 18
1978	Spider-Woman 1
1979	Amazing Spider-Man 194
1979	Daredevil 158
1979	Spectacular Spider-Man 27
1980	Avengers 196
1980	DC Comics Presents 26
1980	New Teen Titans 2
1980	Savage She-Hulk 1
1980	Star Wars 42
1980	X-Men 137

The percentages for CGC 9.8+ are:

1970	1.2%
1971	1.5%
1972	0.3%
1973	1.8%
1974	1.2%
1975	1.4%
1976	7.3%
1977	6.5%
1978	18.9%
1979	8.4%
1980	19.6%

 

If you're wondering whether there are plenty more raw 9.8+ out there, this chart seems to show a decline in CGC 9.8+ since around 2010.

The spike for 2020 from 1978 is Spider-Woman #1, lots of high grade copies submitted so far this year.

Edited March 3, 2020 by valiantman

[seanfingh]

52 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Are you not directly contradicting yourself here?    

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I did.

[RockMyAmadeus]

50 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Definitely sad to see that Avengers 93 with the beautiful squarebound 52-pager Adams cover and interior art become seemingly one of the lost and forgotten keys of the BA, because it was certainly one of the real go to and must have books books back in the day.  

If I remember correctly, it was also probably one of the most expensive, if not the leading BA book in terms of valuation back then.  Definitely not the case anymore.  

You're not alone in thinking that. There was a time, when Neal Adams was the hottest of the hot, that Avengers #93 was the most popular Adams book there was. It used to be THE key Bronze book to get, and went toe-to-toe with Green Lantern #76 in terms of value and demand.

Maybe it's because it's 40 pages of Adams at the very top of his game...and every single page is a masterpiece, a feast for the eyes...but it was THE book to own, and it's sad that it's fallen so far. It's hard to even put it in the top 10 Adams books now.

[LordRahl]

18 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

You're not alone in thinking that. There was a time, when Neal Adams was the hottest of the hot, that Avengers #93 was the most popular Adams book there was. It used to be THE key Bronze book to get, and went toe-to-toe with Green Lantern #76 in terms of value and demand.

Maybe it's because it's 40 pages of Adams at the very top of his game...and every single page is a masterpiece, a feast for the eyes...but it was THE book to own, and it's sad that it's fallen so far. It's hard to even put it in the top 10 Adams books now.

 Really? Blasphemy! What 10 would you put ahead of Avengers 93? I mean Bats 251 and GL 76 sure but after that...

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, LordRahl said:

 Really? Blasphemy! What 10 would you put ahead of Avengers 93? I mean Bats 251 and GL 76 sure but after that...

Bats 232

Bats 234 

Bats 227 (insane, I know)

Bats 251

GL 76

GL 85

GL 86

GL 87

X-Men 58

Avengers 93

[valiantman]

If you want to use CGC submissions as a measure of Neal Adams popularity, these books have Neal Adams mentioned on the label:

Neal Adams CGC label artist

Book	Submissions
Batman 232	2490
Batman 251	2296
Green Lantern 76	2122
Tomb of Dracula 1	1835
Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen 134	1524
Marvel Feature 1	1493
Batman 227	1336
Green Lantern 87	1159
Batman 234	1079
Batman 200	1033
Green Lantern 85	1005
X-Men 58	981
Marvel Spotlight 2	934
Detective Comics 400	890
X-Men 56	826
Batman 244	820
Savage Sword of Conan 1	799
Superman 233	779
Green Lantern 86	738
X-Men 57	730
All-Star Superman 1 Variant Cover	671
X-Men 60	661
Batman 237	628
Detective Comics 411	623
Vampirella 1	617
Avengers 96	580
X-Men 61	565
Avengers 93	528

[LordRahl]

31 minutes ago, valiantman said:

If you want to use CGC submissions as a measure of Neal Adams popularity, these books have Neal Adams mentioned on the label:

Neal Adams CGC label artist

Book	Submissions
Batman 232	2490
Batman 251	2296
Green Lantern 76	2122
Tomb of Dracula 1	1835
Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen 134	1524
Marvel Feature 1	1493
Batman 227	1336
Green Lantern 87	1159
Batman 234	1079
Batman 200	1033
Green Lantern 85	1005
X-Men 58	981
Marvel Spotlight 2	934
Detective Comics 400	890
X-Men 56	826
Batman 244	820
Savage Sword of Conan 1	799
Superman 233	779
Green Lantern 86	738
X-Men 57	730
All-Star Superman 1 Variant Cover	671
X-Men 60	661
Batman 237	628
Detective Comics 411	623
Vampirella 1	617
Avengers 96	580
X-Men 61	565
Avengers 93	528

That likely has more to do with their relative availability in high grade than it does popularity of the individual books. There is literally no person on Earth that would think Batman 200 is cooler than Avengers 93 

[LordRahl]

36 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Bats 232

Bats 234 

Bats 227 (insane, I know)

Bats 251

GL 76

GL 85

GL 86

GL 87

X-Men 58

Avengers 93

I can see the Bats books and X Men but the GL's? Not for me. 

[lou_fine]

27 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Bats 232

Bats 234 

Bats 227 (insane, I know)

Bats 251

GL 76

GL 85

GL 86

GL 87

X-Men 58

Avengers 93

I can see the Bats books and X Men but the GL's? Not for me. 

To each their own, I would have to say then.  

For me personally, I would definitely keep GL 76 in there, but toss out the other 3 GL's along with the X-Men 58.  I would then replace them with books like Jimmy Olsen 134, Detective's 400 & 411, and then a classic Adams cover book like Supes 233.  

[Number 6]

49 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

That likely has more to do with their relative availability in high grade than it does popularity of the individual books. There is literally no person on Earth that would think Batman 200 is cooler than Avengers 93 

Or Detective #395 which didn’t even make the list. 

[LordRahl]

35 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

To each their own, I would have to say then.  

For me personally, I would definitely keep GL 76 in there, but toss out the other 3 GL's along with the X-Men 58.  I would then replace them with books like Jimmy Olsen 134, Detective's 400 & 411, and then a classic Adams cover book like Supes 233.  

I meant the other GL's besides the 76. I originally had GL76 as one of the 2 obvious ones ahead of Avengers 93 in my first post that RMA was responding to. It absolutely belongs on any Adams top 10 list. Tec 411 I can see being top 10 and Supes 233 definitely, can't believe that RMA and I didn't think of that one. But even if I had to kick books like Bats 234 out, I'd still put Avengers 93 in my top 10. 

[Xenosmilus]

6 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

There is a tremendous difference between early to mid bronze (1970-1975) and late bronze (1975-1980) in 9.8.

Let me rephrase what I was asking to make my point. If an early / mid bronze age book becomes Hot that wasn't before in the past would you expect to see a lot of new 9.8's get graded?