GA COMIC BOOK Collecting in the Financial crisis of 2020 3 3

[Cat-Man_America]

7 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

Supply vs demand...is not just that simple. This is an unusual market condition, where buyers might not act rationally nor normally. For example this virus has taken out a yet unknown number of Ga/SA buyers that will not spend any money because of the uncertain times, it is not that do not want to, or cannot, but they will be afraid of future events financially. The longer this downturn is and the more real it becomes the greater the fear of spending in a recession or depression will set it. Something can be rare or ultra rate and maybe some buyers will outnumber the material available, but that begs the question..how much will a collector be willing to pay...given the financial uncertainly. That is the determining factor here. You might have 5 buyers at 50% of GPA but you probably are not gonna have a single one at 100%. The quality of buyer  and his ability to pay decrease as economic downturns continue   and that determines  the GA/SA current market price.

What is normal or rational about buying 10 cent comic books for thousands of dollars?  

6 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

I think the GA/SA market has been very kind to the restored books especially those with minor repairs. In the coin world, there was this old coin clearer in the early 60''s and 70's that made coins look new, it totally destroyed the value of those down 90% to more. On the other hand, I do not believe that current market price differences with  unrestored blue books are excessive either. It is actually a pretty far market. The price  restored differential really helps collector who are trying complete sets or runs and have been subject to speculation on the yet acquired comic books due to flippers, pressers and widget buyers. So that is a good thing, complete your Action 1-10 with a few restored books and that is quite a run. Of course I do not think those "Franken" books count....which are more unreal than real. If I was a run collector, and that was my goal....I could live with Blue, purple or whatever to get to that collector goal. The only negative thing is when you exit as you have a much greater chance to have a next loss due to the restricted growth of restored books or limited demand. The entry is easy, it will the exist that hurts. As long as you can with that possibility then go for it. I agree batman fan, that books with slight restoration should sell for a LOT more than books whom have been restored extensively. 

Paper is more fragile than coins, and again, professional third party grading takes concern over undisclosed restoration off the table.  It's literally a moot point in today's auction based collecting world.

6 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

BBM means "bolded by me" in message board shorthand.

Thank goodness, I thought it might've been something like Balancing BMs in a global pandemic with insufficient quantities of unadulterated toilet paper.  

6 hours ago, bluechip said:

Okay.   Good to know.   I can't quote what the internet said it meant.  Just know that in their translation, the "M" stood for "meat"  

Who knows what kind of cookies or viruses you managed to pick up with that search! .......................................................................  

2 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

To  me rusty staples is the KOD, no matter what the book is, I can really never understand that replacing rusty stables has such a harsh penalty. What if you took the staples from say a coverless copy and the CGC grader replaced them? There has got to be a way to save the GA BOOK from this destruction similar to what BC has been talking about.

We're finally on the same page here, ...but you know what third party grading service's call replacing rusty staples? .............. wait for it ............ RESTORATION!  

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

4 hours ago, lou_fine said:

This was certainly the thinking back in the day when the big money investors were more than willing to pay for the high grade copies, while the collectors were ofen times just happy getting any copy of the book, especially the ones who only wanted a reading copy and didn't want to spend big dollars for a copy.  This then left the middle ground as sort of like the unwanted child with no ready buyers for the copies in the mid-grade range.  

As books have gotten more and more expensive though and with the HG copies still locked away in private collections in most cases, this current hot market have seen the CGC generation of investors step in to fill this middle ground, especially in the case of the red hot in-demand GA books.  As a result, it's almost become the norm now to see record prices on mid-grade copies of either semi-keys or classic cover books like Mask 1 & 2, Archie 50, Seven Seas 4, etc.  Speaking of mid-grade in-demand books, it'll definitely be interesting to see where this copy of Cap 3 finishes up at in the next Heritage Auction:    

I imagine probably not as high as it could if it didn't have the detached centerfold and the 2 rusty staples which kind of sticks out like a sore thumb.  

 

I’m happy to get a detached centerfold. It brings the grade down a couple points, getting me a high grade looking book for not high grade money. 
 

rusted staples are a different matter. I don’t believe encapsulation stops the spread. CGC told me that encapsulation stops the spread of foxing. @Gotham Kid has said encapsulation stops the damage tape can cause paper. I’ve never heard encapsulation stops the migration of rust, so I tend to avoid books w rusty staples

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

4 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

To  me rusty staples is the KOD, no matter what the book is, I can really never understand that replacing rusty stables has such a harsh penalty. What if you took the staples from say a coverless copy and the CGC grader replaced them? There has got to be a way to save the GA BOOK from this destruction similar to what BC has been talking about.

Wait. Are you and @bluechip about to smoke the peace pipe!!??

[fifties]

9 hours ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

I’ve never heard encapsulation stops the migration of rust, so I tend to avoid books w rusty staples

I've had a few books in my collection for 40 some years with staple and paper rust, and haven't noticed it having spread any further than when I got them.  And all of my books are raw.

[lou_fine]

9 minutes ago, fifties said:

9 hours ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

I’ve never heard encapsulation stops the migration of rust, so I tend to avoid books w rusty staples

I've had a few books in my collection for 40 some years with staple and paper rust, and haven't noticed it having spread any further than when I got them.  And all of my books are raw.

Same here as I had an early GA book which I had picked up from my first SD Con some 30 years ago with rusty staples and it doesn't seem to have spread any further in the interim. 

Asked a prominent GA dealer about replacing out the rusty staples and he said that it would be better investment wise to simply put it in a mylar holder which should slow down the migration of the rust to a large degree.  

[Mmehdy]

10 hours ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Wait. Are you and @bluechip about to smoke the peace pipe!!??

BC always makes strong effective  points and there is some parts which I agree with and some we agree to disagree. It is probably a matter of what you image would be the perfect comic book world  would be and what have your past experiences been within that world. In 1966 we started a comic collectors club myself and fellow collector named Victor. Small but dedicated that world was wonderful. I cannot express to you the excitement each we was when it was comic day, looking at the stands with amazement and wonder. Since 1960 we had evolved going up the chain and later, I can remember that Fantastic Four was considered the best illustrated and written comic and that Spiderman was the was most popular by far. My first adventure to a comic book store was in San Jose...and first comic book convention were eyeopeners . The very early years of comic book collectors were amazing and cannot ever be repeated. It is from that foundation, when collectors were considered "dorks" that collectors in the early days had a sort of code of conduct or rules. The number one rule is NEVER tell anybody what you own. It creates more demand and open up their eyes that they should collecting-remember nobody respected comic book collecting  and your collection is your business and . 2-never hog in on a deal that is being made, especially at conventions..if somebody is trying by a book you really want...you say, hey..I will pay more and there are several more that I could get into in the early days of comic book collecting on the west coast with a lot of conduct changing over time as the comic book world grew exponentially. Remember, there was no CGC, no protection..constant overgrading but you did not complain because the cost was so inexpensive..and there were negatives, early on not perfect by any means. But you could tell who was with you in the comic book world, who did not care, and who was against you.

 Fast Forward to today with "spread sheet" comic book investing and flippers, pressers and widget buyers whom we compete with and BINGO a. 2020 Ga/Sa comic book world which takes intelligence, luck and dedication to be a true comic book collector. I myself do not want to venture alone, like the early days of duck shooting in the pond, with everything  being so complicated or information based in 2020 and beyond. That is why I and I assume you are on these boards, not to make more money as a flipper, not a widget buyer as they could care less about what we say its the $ that count, No, its to survive all of those artificial  competitors who have filled our comic book world with speculation and manufacturing  up comic book cgc grades to new artificial heights...just to make profit and that makes Ga/Sa comic book collecting so different in 2020.  The collective knowledge of this board and thousands of years combined of comic book collecting will keep our passion, alive, well and healthy towards the future and nobody, unless you were born in or lost relatives in 1918 would have ever dreamed this virus curveball that hit world would be so powerful as to shut countries completely down. This makes our Ga/Sa comic book buying  the most riskiest we will hopefully encounter in  our remaining lifetime.I cannot and any serious Ga/SA collector cannot conduct business as usual. We are in the unusual, and unknown on a road that seems a bit foggy today...but will everyones input, knowledge and dedication we should come thru this together, better, stronger and smarter.

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Mmehdy

[Mmehdy]

14 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Same here as I had an early GA book which I had picked up from my first SD Con some 30 years ago with rusty staples and it doesn't seem to have spread any further in the interim. 

Asked a prominent GA dealer about replacing out the rusty staples and he said that it would be better investment wise to simply put it in a mylar holder which should slow down the migration of the rust to a large degree.  

If you removed the staples from the book and cleaned them...it that alone considered restoration? conserving and as far as damage goes it depends on the amount of deterioration in that staple to create additional damage.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Mmehdy

[lou_fine]

3 minutes ago, Mmehdy said:

If you removed the staples from the book and cleaned them...it that alone considered restoration?

You are definitely asking the wrong person since I just like to keep and hold onto the books in my personal collection the way they are.  

Like what Borock said on these boards here way back in 2005 or thereabouts, "disassembly and reassembly of a comic book, in and of itself, does not consitute restoration" or something to that effect.  Definitely blew the doors wide open to another whole range of undisclosed manipulated activities as flippers and speculators saw how a book could go from CGC 4.0 right up to CGC 9.0 just like that.  

Now, if you are going to clean the staples, I am not sure if that would fall under either Restoration or Conservation since it's under both categories according to this link here:  

 https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/4084/

Of course, I assume if you clean it really well in such a way that they cannot detect it, I guess it would then be considered as Universal Unrestored.    

[lou_fine]

On 5/3/2020 at 11:29 AM, Mmehdy said:

Whether you collect food, Ga comic books, if you make one label for all...does the ultra FRANKENSTEIN BOOKS and you know the ones I am talking about...deserve the same label as books which were kept in a pine chest in a attic for 50 years untouched. That is the danger BC of one label for all. Real, Unreal,Recreation etc we must maintain some type of reality as well as rational price to maintain a growing and sustaining GA/SA world.

Hey Mitch;

Would a CEDAR chest qualify as this dynamic duo mentioned at the 2:03 mark of this big time huckstering video here:  

Must have worked as this copy managed to fetched $3.2M million dollars while sitting in this one-color label slab, although I guess as we all know here, we really should be reading between their lips and shifting eyes since they clearly forgot to mention this book's climb up the grading chart over the years.  

Edited May 6, 2020 by lou_fine

[Mmehdy]

2 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Hey Mitch;

Would a CEDAR chest qualify as this dynamic duo mentioned at the 2:03 mark of this big time huckstering video here:  

Must have worked as this copy managed to fetched $3.2M million dollars while sitting in this one-color label slab, although I guess as we all know here, we really should be reading between their lips since they clearly forgot to mention this book's climb up the grading chart over the years.  

I talked to the dealer who found that book and it was in a chest locked away..white white pages he said

[lou_fine]

1 minute ago, Mmehdy said:

I talked to the dealer who found that book and it was in a chest locked away..white white pages he said

No doubt that part is  , it's the next 35 plus years afterwards, and in particular the last 20 after CGC came onto the scene, that deserves a bit more due diligence.  

[Cat-Man_America]

43 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

You are definitely asking the wrong person since I just like to keep and hold onto the books in my personal collection the way they are.  

Like what Borock said on these boards here way back in 2005 or thereabouts, "disassembly and reassembly of a comic book, in and of itself, does not consitute restoration" or something to that effect.  Definitely blew the doors wide open to another whole range of undisclosed manipulated activities as flippers and speculators saw how a book could go from CGC 4.0 right up to CGC 9.0 just like that.  

Now, if you are going to clean the staples, I am not sure if that would fall under either Restoration or Conservation since it's under both categories according to this link here:  

 https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/4084/

Of course, I assume if you clean it really well in such a way that they cannot detect it, I guess it would then be considered as Universal Unrestored.    

Staple replacement used to get a green label designation, which some folks here view green as worse than purple.  Personally, I dislike punitive color coding of labels as it paints all efforts at restoration with a broad brush while implying that fans are too self-absorbed to bother reading labels.  Nevertheless, I understand the controversy since manipulation has the potential to artificially inflate grades, ergo values.  Truth is, early on ...before third party grading... OSG had a reasonable guideline in place allowing staple replacement via staples from the era.  The important point here is that staple replacement under these guidelines didn’t stigmatize books.  

However, there is a fair counter argument that has to be considered as well.  If disassembling and reassembly becomes noticeable due to increased wear around staple holes it may leave the impression of other kinds of unwanted manipulation.  If that’s really the case, then it is certainly food for thought.

I’m in agreement with Mitch on rust.  Rust never sleeps ...just ask Neil Young... and is something to be avoided whenever possible, but that opinion is entirely subjective,  OTOH, rust isn’t the same thing as tarnish.  Over time tarnish can turn shiny staples gray or blue-gray, perhaps even dark gray or black.  Some oxidation is considered normal, occurring naturally or through human handling.  Tarnish is more akin to a patina. Conversely, rust is caused through staples having been exposed to moisture, either through storage in a damp environment or books having been exposed to chemicals in some fashion perhaps in an effort to store books in a neutral pH environment.  But proper book storage is a totally different thread topic that could potentially derail the equally important economic discussions.  So, let’s save that one for another day.

I don’t know whether any of these shared thoughts will move the conversation along, but there you have it.

[batman_fan]

1 hour ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Staple replacement used to get a green label designation, which some folks here view green as worse than purple.  Personally, I dislike punitive color coding of labels as it paints all efforts at restoration with a broad brush while implying that fans are too self-absorbed to bother reading labels.  Nevertheless, I understand the controversy since manipulation has the potential to artificially inflate grades, ergo values.  Truth is, early on ...before third party grading... OSG had a reasonable guideline in place allowing staple replacement via staples from the era.  The important point here is that staple replacement under these guidelines didn’t stigmatize books.  

However, there is a fair counter argument that has to be considered as well.  If disassembling and reassembly becomes noticeable due to increased wear around staple holes it may leave the impression of other kinds of unwanted manipulation.  If that’s really the case, then it is certainly food for thought.

I’m in agreement with Mitch on rust.  Rust never sleeps ...just ask Neil Young... and is something to be avoided whenever possible, but that opinion is entirely subjective,  OTOH, rust isn’t the same thing as tarnish.  Over time tarnish can turn shiny staples gray or blue-gray, perhaps even dark gray or black.  Some oxidation is considered normal, occurring naturally or through human handling.  Tarnish is more akin to a patina. Conversely, rust is caused through staples having been exposed to moisture, either through storage in a damp environment or books having been exposed to chemicals in some fashion perhaps in an effort to store books in a neutral pH environment.  But proper book storage is a totally different thread topic that could potentially derail the equally important economic discussions.  So, let’s save that one for another day.

I don’t know whether any of these shared thoughts will move the conversation along, but there you have it.

Could blue labels be considered as punitive given the new color for pedigree books 

[bluechip]

16 hours ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

I’m happy to get a detached centerfold. It brings the grade down a couple points, getting me a high grade looking book for not high grade money. 
 

rusted staples are a different matter. I don’t believe encapsulation stops the spread. CGC told me that encapsulation stops the spread of foxing. @Gotham Kid has said encapsulation stops the damage tape can cause paper. I’ve never heard encapsulation stops the migration of rust, so I tend to avoid books w rusty staples

That looks an awful lot like a book I once owned.   If so I prolly have a kinko's copy somewhere.

[jimbo_7071]

6 hours ago, lou_fine said:

You are definitely asking the wrong person since I just like to keep and hold onto the books in my personal collection the way they are.  

Like what Borock said on these boards here way back in 2005 or thereabouts, "disassembly and reassembly of a comic book, in and of itself, does not consitute restoration" or something to that effect.  Definitely blew the doors wide open to another whole range of undisclosed manipulated activities as flippers and speculators saw how a book could go from CGC 4.0 right up to CGC 9.0 just like that.  

Now, if you are going to clean the staples, I am not sure if that would fall under either Restoration or Conservation since it's under both categories according to this link here:  

 https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/4084/

Of course, I assume if you clean it really well in such a way that they cannot detect it, I guess it would then be considered as Universal Unrestored.    

4.0 to 9.0? Was that a Boy Comics 17 reference, perhaps?

 

[Mmehdy]

42 minutes ago, jimbo_7071 said:

4.0 to 9.0? Was that a Boy Comics 17 reference, perhaps?

 

Does anyone know what exactly was done to get the grade up by 5 points...it looked like a but under graded at 4.0...wow that really is playing the system at all of its weakest points. The value difference must be at least double or triple going from 4.0 to 9.0 as well as increased desirability.  Is it right? is it just? is it ethical?.....or is it just the bottom line..more $$. BC touched on this subject and I might have been wrong in judging him on his point. Motive...if this was a book that I considered as part of my permanent collection, not resale at any price, would I be justified to upgrade this book. It certainly would be ethical and legal and just. I really like the way HA does it scans, LOL..you might be safer to inspect the book in persons if you are dealing in GA/SA for 4 figures or above. You could imply since it was auctioned at Ha.com when it hit 9.0...that profit could have been a major motivating factor. A very tough issue for traditional Ga/SA comic book collectors to get there head around it.

 So I issue I see if to upgrade for yourself, your collection or for a future buyer...does that make it any more right or wrong. Something inside me says it is not right just for pure profit. But any true comic book collector should the right to make his copy look better. To me no, it somehow changes things, or carefully directs non declared restoration to create something better but not necessary more real. Cat is right and I am old school, and it let out a heck of long time ago. Time to Mannup and get my attitude right and proper for 2020 and not 1973.

 There are going to be a lot of wonderful buying opportunities going forward, and some very very rare material could become available as time goes on, so whether buying or selling or even trading get ready to rock and I have to admit one factor that I have not included in my buying decision is possible upgradeability to increase presentation, not necessarily increasing pure $ resale  value. Dylan: The times they are a changing  and so am I.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Mmehdy

[Moondog]

On 4/18/2020 at 12:32 AM, Tri-ColorBrian said:

I see SDCC crashing and burning within 5 years.  Smaller comic-oriented cons like Terry's SoCal Con are what collectors want...and to make it safe I predict Terry will rent 10 times the space so we can social distance as we buy...

As a non-profit entity SDCC doesn't need to make a huge profit to sustain itself.  If they make less money they will just spend less on other pop culture programs (their charter).  Plus they had millions in the bank during the mid-90s.  That nest egg has to be huge now.

[N e r V]

6 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Staple replacement used to get a green label designation, which some folks here view green as worse than purple.  Personally, I dislike punitive color coding of labels as it paints all efforts at restoration with a broad brush while implying that fans are too self-absorbed to bother reading labels.  Nevertheless, I understand the controversy since manipulation has the potential to artificially inflate grades, ergo values.  Truth is, early on ...before third party grading... OSG had a reasonable guideline in place allowing staple replacement via staples from the era.  The important point here is that staple replacement under these guidelines didn’t stigmatize books.  

However, there is a fair counter argument that has to be considered as well.  If disassembling and reassembly becomes noticeable due to increased wear around staple holes it may leave the impression of other kinds of unwanted manipulation.  If that’s really the case, then it is certainly food for thought.

I’m in agreement with Mitch on rust.  Rust never sleeps ...just ask Neil Young... and is something to be avoided whenever possible, but that opinion is entirely subjective,  OTOH, rust isn’t the same thing as tarnish.  Over time tarnish can turn shiny staples gray or blue-gray, perhaps even dark gray or black.  Some oxidation is considered normal, occurring naturally or through human handling.  Tarnish is more akin to a patina. Conversely, rust is caused through staples having been exposed to moisture, either through storage in a damp environment or books having been exposed to chemicals in some fashion perhaps in an effort to store books in a neutral pH environment.  But proper book storage is a totally different thread topic that could potentially derail the equally important economic discussions.  So, let’s save that one for another day.

I don’t know whether any of these shared thoughts will move the conversation along, but there you have it.

I’m not a fan of most restorative work but since I avoid rusty staple books like the plague for the reasons mentioned above like a bad tooth they need to be removed and replaced before they poison the rest of the book. Rust will never stop. Having a book with rusty staples is like saying I’m fine keeping the cancer without any treatment.

So staple replacement for rusty staples should be the best choice of a bad situation...

[fifties]

55 minutes ago, N e r V said:

I’m not a fan of most restorative work but since I avoid rusty staple books like the plague for the reasons mentioned above like a bad tooth they need to be removed and replaced before they poison the rest of the book. Rust will never stop. Having a book with rusty staples is like saying I’m fine keeping the cancer without any treatment.

So staple replacement for rusty staples should be the best choice of a bad situation...

Can't agree with you, little buddy.  How exactly can paper continue to rust?  Here's a book I bought about 20 years ago, and it looks today just the same as it did back then, AFA rust stains.

[lou_fine]

3 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

10 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Definitely blew the doors wide open to another whole range of undisclosed manipulated activities as flippers and speculators saw how a book could go from CGC 4.0 right up to CGC 9.0 just like that.  

 

4.0 to 9.0? Was that a Boy Comics 17 reference, perhaps?

 

Yes, you must be on the ball and guilty as charged based upon a post in a thread talking about books going from 9.4 to 9.6 to 9.8 which I had made last summer:  

On 9/5/2019 at 8:23 PM, lou_fine said:

 

Richard;

I guess this book doesn't actually belong here since it hasn't made it anywhere close to a CGC 9.8 graded level yet.  Then again, I giess we should never say never as there's still lots of time left to play before the game is over.  I guess it probably belongs more appropriately in your "Why So Many CGC 6.0's " thread which you started since it blew right past this condition grade like there was no tomorrow.  

I think we all remember this now classic Edgar Church Mile High book which started life out as a CGC 4.0 graded copy:

 

and then graduated to become a CGC 7.5 graded copy:

 

before finally acheiving its current CGC 9.0 graded honors, all while residing in a Blue Universal unrestored slab:

 

Not only did we learn all about undisclosed pressing and what had been happening behind the scene at the time from this book amongst many others, but we also learned for the first time that "disassembly and reassembly of a comic book in and of itself does not constitute restoration" and this was how a book could go from a grade of 4.0 right up to a grade of 9.0.    Why, how absolutely silly of the hobby place to have thought otherwise for all those long decades before CGC finally opened our eyes to thankfully let us see the light at long last.      

I also noticed that Heritage must be making more money as they are apparently putting stronger and stronger light bulbs in their buildings as the years go by.