Jim Lee's marathon sketches 1 1

[ESeffinga]

I'm with Vodou 100%. Manga sells a ton of books to western kids. I don't hear stories about Dark Horse about to go under (personnel issues, yeah), but something happened to the comics market in the 90s, and those repercussions IMO, are still being felt. I see young people in the comic shop every time I go in. Not kids, but "kids" to me. Folks in their teens and 20s going in to pick up stuff I've never even heard of before. The shop I like to go to has SO many small titles on the shelves right now, I couldn't even possibly read them all in my lifetime I have left. And it is for that, I have tried to order from them a few times during this whole COVID mess. I hope they can ride out the storm. But even still, creators aren't going to stop creating or being creative.

Video games, blah blah blah. You know what else isn't as popular as going to the movies? Reading a book. And yet books are still published profitably all the time. Do publishers come and go? Absolutely. Even ancient established ones. But as much as anything, today's market is about product. And quite frankly, I think the splintering of the media pie will continue to fracture. And what that won't support is big hulking corporations, carrying the weight of massive staff of middle management, etc. It's increasingly about creators connecting with audiences, and having less in the way. Making less than having a massive audience, but knowing when to say when. not over-growing, and over producing. And filling landfills with product that doesn't find a real buyer. So much waste. So much hope that the thing someone else created 50-70 years ago can sustain your corporation all the way to the bank. I think the stories the big 2 give us rely on a massive crutch. A shorthand that you already know who Batman is, let's recycle that package with today's emulation of a news topic dujour, and address that issue through the lens of an IP? How much traction can that really have long term before the world tires of it?

I read a series of tweets via a blog this morning that basically opined Batman is a character that belongs in the past. In a nutshell, the author suggests that as Warners/DC has made Batman darker and more realistic,  the writers aren't superior intellects, and haven't been clever enough to come up with a story that really involves Batman using his superior intellect to solve. So instead he is more like the armored police that we see more of today. Except he can do things the police can't, like beat a confession out of you. Hold you off a roof and scare you for information. And show up and break your bones for breaking the law. Batman isn't so far removed from the police in equipment and gadgets. Not like the Batman of old, who was far more advanced than the police, etc. That the more real Batman becomes, the more he's just a vigilante thug to inspire other vigilante thugs.

I'm not here to defend the guys tweets. I actually had a lot of issues with the statements he made (as a long time Batman fan myself), but the truth is that it made me think these characters who have enjoyed many years as multiple generations' stand ins for Greek gods/myths, have evolved so much. At what point does the elasticity of a rewrite just become like a loose rubber band? Overstretched to the point where it can't do the job, and no one cares anymore?

There are occasional gems that slip out, don't get me wrong. And we've all seen at least some of the movies that mine this material, and feed the even bigger entertainment machine. But we've also increasingly seen movies that you may or may not know where inspired by a comic book NOT from the big two. Especially in the age of streaming services. So many comics are finding their way to the screen that don't feature characters that we know. That's a different kind of creative lazy shorthand of course. TV and movie writers looking to comics for inspiration/properties. But that's really always been the way, right? Before comics, there were those boring books, etc.

 

Sorry, I'm just rambling along. But yeah, comics.
They'll still exist. But they may not even resemble what we remember. They'll move on, and leave us all behind eventually.

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by ESeffinga

[Rick2you2]

10 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

But as much as anything, today's market is about product. And quite frankly, I think the splintering of the media pie will continue to fracture. And what that won't support is big hulking corporations, carrying the weight of massive staff of middle management, etc.

You mean like AT&T's ownership of DC Comics? If you are AT&T, you have a certain world view, honed from its days as a legacy telephone company. I don't disagree with your "rambling". The problem is that DC Comics, a company with some excellent characters and history, together with skilled personnel, is not going to be permitted to flex its skills even though it should.

[ESeffinga]

Except this extends back years and years before AT&T...  anyone that hasn't already really should read Marvel The Untold Story. It gives a fly on the wall view of what it is like to make comics (or any art) via any corporate infrastructure.

 

[vodou]

1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

You mean like AT&T's ownership of DC Comics? If you are AT&T, you have a certain world view, honed from its days as a legacy telephone company. I don't disagree with your "rambling". The problem is that DC Comics, a company with some excellent characters and history, together with skilled personnel, is not going to be permitted to flex its skills even though it should.

I know it hurts, but...perhaps time to accept that Phantom Stranger will die a quieter and earlier death than yourself? It's just "a" character

Somehow, some of you have been "at" comics for decades and still do Big Two SuperHeroes(tm)...but man...not me. Bo-ring.

Back to @ESeffinga, comment about manga appeal in the West...european "books" and manga (mini) telephone books are what we're trying to measure floppies against. One has very high production value and the other very low; I just want to remind everyone that the last time I looked at actual Japanese manga (not US imports) it's mostly/all b/w, the only color being the first several pages in the beginning (if that). And the 95% that's non-color is on marginally heavier paper than actual newsprint. This stuff is cheap to produce, that's why the page count is massive! The other side of it is thin euro-books that are beautiful works of art to just hold, but man o' man the page count is thin, or the thing is $85. Color and nice paper is the devil. Want to follow the Archie digest model? Drop the nice paper at least and double the page count? Really want to make it happen? Double the page acount three more times and drop the color altogether! (and with that The Colorists Union prepares their lawsuit )

[ESeffinga]

A few more musings on the Manga and European comic markets. IMO the US may have "invented" the modern comic book, but those Euro and Manga artists have been essentially schooling americans for decades. Frank Miller is for many, seen as the auteur of his time, but look at his work and influences. Frank was massively influenced by those artists.

So why is Frank a household name in the US, and so many of his influencers are not? English, man. English. The US as a culture is lazy. It tends to want everything handed to it on a plate, and we sure aren't going out of our way to learn another language in order to read something. But that talent was always there across the globe. Wanna know why so much Manga thrives in the US now, but not so much in the 80s when Frank was studying it and on the rise? It's being translated into English. And the publishers have been making bank on it ever since.

And so many new comic artists are heavily inspired by that Manga influence, either overtly, or just internalizing it and coming up with their own interpretation of it. Doing what all good art does. Beg, borrow and steal until it is internalized, and comes out looking fresh and new.  But the real driver in those non-US markets is creativity and freedom to stretch out. Bucketloads of unique stories and worlds, with distinctly unique visual styles emerging among the din of sameness. Cream rises to the top.

The US has, since the whole Wertham debacle, been a nation of prudes that see comic books (and animation) as the bastion of children and the under developed man-child. Where in other parts of the globe, the art form has been not only allowed to grow and be nurtured in the way that film has been, but like the best films, it has pushed boundaries outward, and found acceptance in the main stream as a bit of something for everybody. It's not a stigma or a weird thing for an adult to read a comic. And the material is reflected in what they present. They are long past nostalgia trip being the biggest game in town. IMO the Big 2's approach to the US comics market is just milking it's past glories, and recycling them ad-infinitum for fast cash, and missing the biggest picture of all. Some of the other publishers have learned some lessons, and their most successful books look to be those that are breaking these cycles.

One other interesting comparison in work ethic. Those Manga guys are workhorses in the Kirby vein. Way more than most US artists are. Everyone here thinks they are an Artist with a cap A, and they should be lauded and cheered every time the string 4 books together and put them out as a "graphic novel". Put that up against the sheer volumes of stellar work some of the best known names in Manga have managed to accumulate. The closest thing the US has are the sheer volume of Kirby, or from the indy side, Dave Sim?

I'm excited to see how things shake out, personally. Bring on the new chit!

And unlike Vodou, I actually think there is a place for those glorious color European hardcover volumes. I have some. They are amazing. They work there. They can work here. They just don't need to be printed in a gajillion copies and dumped on Barnes & Noble and Amazon until they drop to $6.95 sale prices. Smaller volume. Find out what is a hit, and what sells great, then do the big volume release. I just watched a documentary last night on Steve Madden, and his shoe company. They make small "artisan" runs of shoes and put them in their stores. Find out what sells great, and then go into mass production. The small artier stuff still gets published but in small numbers. The ones that are going to be a smash hit, get the big time treatment thereafter. Seems to me like a lot of comics could learn a thing or two from this model. Not having a huge organization trying to justify their existence to stockholders in the corporate world, clinging on the backs of the artists and printers doing the actual work, is a pretty good way to streamline things. The big 2 have largely outgrown real comics, IMO. They are really just flailing promotional companies in disguise.

 

 

 

 

[Will_K]

 

2 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

I read a series of tweets via a blog this morning that basically opined Batman is a character that belongs in the past. In a nutshell, the author suggests that as Warners/DC has made Batman darker and more realistic,  the writers aren't superior intellects, and haven't been clever enough to come up with a story that really involves Batman using his superior intellect to solve. So instead he is more like the armored police that we see more of today. Except he can do things the police can't, like beat a confession out of you. Hold you off a roof and scare you for information. And show up and break your bones for breaking the law. Batman isn't so far removed from the police in equipment and gadgets. Not like the Batman of old, who was far more advanced than the police, etc. That the more real Batman becomes, the more he's just a vigilante thug to inspire other vigilante thugs.

I've always wanted to see a Batman movie that was more of a detective movie than an action movie.  At one time, DC billed Batman as "the world's greatest detective".

Darwyn Cooke made the point that the best thing the Big Two could do is abandon their legacy characters and start all over and create stories that would appeal to all ages.

For video footage, go to youtube and search the title "The Real Reason Darwyn Cooke Wouldn't Work With Marvel Comics"

[ESeffinga]

I had long said I wanted to see a clever Batman detective movie not unlike Fincher's Seven , but with Zsasz. Or some other tale that was super clever, like some of the old Sherlock stories. Something that really had you on the edge of your seat, and not trying to be so brutal visually but more mentally brutal. I've read recently that this is what they have tried to do with the current Batman film, but with so many "stars" filling supervillan roles, I can't see how just yet, and still devote enough time to actual story. Reserving judgement. Yeah, I'll prolly watch it at some point.

And there are those that want Batman to go back to the days of Batman shrunk onto the wacky giant piano, etc. I've no personal need of Bat Shark repellant.
 

 

 

[Will_K]

My model is Batman a la "LA Confidential".  It's OK to have lots of characters but it still works as a unit.

[Rick2you2]

3 hours ago, vodou said:

I know it hurts, but...perhaps time to accept that Phantom Stranger will die a quieter and earlier death than yourself? It's just "a" character

I would likely survive the loss, but I am not sure where I would store the old alter and vestments. 

 

[vodou]

4 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

And unlike Vodou, I actually think there is a place for those glorious color European hardcover volumes.

Oh I agree with this, just not "for me", the price point competes too closely with MORE ORIGINAL ART

But that's on me. "Our" artists don't all command four to five figures for basic panel pages either, so there's that.

Brubaker and Phillips are making a stab at the European "album" model with these:

[JadeGiant]

Nearly $17K - nice result. Will be fun watching these down the stretch. 

[Blastaar]

49 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

Nearly $17K - nice result. Will be fun watching these down the stretch. 

That is outstanding. 

[Will_K]

Where will this close ??

Batman - The Red Death Jim Lee Original Art Sketch #13/60 CGC Signature Series

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164359471173

From @JadeGiant 's tally, Jim Lee's original auction closed at $8,875

http://www.statueforum.com/showpost.php?p=5846465&postcount=4

 

 

 

[Unstoppablejayd]

4 minutes ago, Will_K said:

Where will this close ??

Batman - The Red Death Jim Lee Original Art Sketch #13/60 CGC Signature Series

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164359471173

From @JadeGiant 's tally, Jim Lee's original auction closed at $8,875

http://www.statueforum.com/showpost.php?p=5846465&postcount=4

 

 

 

5500

[Will_K]

I wonder how it could be CGC SS ?? 

Did the seller send Jim Lee's unopened package to CGC ??

I saw a weird thing at a local show.  A guy brought a comic to get signed by an artist.  I think he had the CGC SS label with the comic (previously signed by another, I guess).  He asked the artist to sign a form indicating that he signed such-n-such comic on that day and provided his contact info.  So I guess that form and the comic is enough to get it a CGC SS without an actual witness.  Absolutely weird.

[JadeGiant]

31 minutes ago, Will_K said:

I wonder how it could be CGC SS ?? 

Did the seller send Jim Lee's unopened package to CGC ??

I saw a weird thing at a local show.  A guy brought a comic to get signed by an artist.  I think he had the CGC SS label with the comic (previously signed by another, I guess).  He asked the artist to sign a form indicating that he signed such-n-such comic on that day and provided his contact info.  So I guess that form and the comic is enough to get it a CGC SS without an actual witness.  Absolutely weird.

IIRC, Jim announced at some point that CGC was joining the fundraiser and my guess is that this is the result. Going from memory so I could be wrong ... 

[Will_K]

On 9/4/2020 at 10:01 AM, Unstoppablejayd said:

On 9/4/2020 at 9:57 AM, Will_K said:

Where will this close ??

Batman - The Red Death Jim Lee Original Art Sketch #13/60 CGC Signature Series

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164359471173

From @JadeGiant 's tally, Jim Lee's original auction closed at $8,875

http://www.statueforum.com/showpost.php?p=5846465&postcount=4

 

 

 

5500

For the record, the ebay auction closed at $5,655.00  Ouch.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Will_K

[Unstoppablejayd]

1 hour ago, Will_K said:

For the record, the ebay auction closed at $5,655.00  Ouch.

I should have played the lottery! 

[malvin]

too bad for the seller, but those Jim Lee auctions were unlikely to be re-sold for more anytime soon.

Malvin

[exitmusicblue]

The owner/seller contributed to a good cause, at least.

If he'd meant to flip all along, then so be it...

Win-win.