Tangent Question- if you could buy AF #15, FF #1, or Hulk #1 OA pages, but could never tell anyone or share to anyone, would you want to
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So if you had the money, and the chance to buy a page from Hulk #1 for example, but could never show it or tell anyone you had it.  Would you rather it? Or a piece of OA that’s on the market (say Hulk 3), considerably cheaper, and something you could crow about here, on CAF, and to anyone who’d listen?

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I would buy them and keep them to myself if that was the only choice. I’d love to see FF 1 pages.

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Why wouldn't you buy it?

I don't understand the question? (shrug)

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19 minutes ago, Shemp said:

Why wouldn't you buy it?

I don't understand the question? (shrug)

I was just thinking that FF 1 and 2 Hulk 1 and 2 etc, we’re probably stolen, so someone has them but they’re sitting in a closet or a vault somewhere and the person who’s got them can’t tell anyone about it.  And then I asked myself if it would be worth it?

Sure the question is hypothetical, and it implies that you must have millions of dollars in disposable income (surely a page from AF 15, FF 1, or Hulk 1 would fetch a million, yes?), but would you want to fork out that kind of money if you could never tell anyone about it, or share it with anyone?  I think that’s 1/2 the fun isn’t it?

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1 hour ago, Grant Turner said:

I was just thinking that FF 1 and 2 Hulk 1 and 2 etc, we’re probably stolen, so someone has them but they’re sitting in a closet or a vault somewhere and the person who’s got them can’t tell anyone about it.  And then I asked myself if it would be worth it?

Sure the question is hypothetical, and it implies that you must have millions of dollars in disposable income (surely a page from AF 15, FF 1, or Hulk 1 would fetch a million, yes?), but would you want to fork out that kind of money if you could never tell anyone about it, or share it with anyone?  I think that’s 1/2 the fun isn’t it?

There are collectors like this all over the world. I can imagine a guy in a secret art room drooling over FF 1 pages all by his lonesome. 

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57 minutes ago, grapeape said:

There are collectors like this all over the world. I can imagine a guy in a secret art room drooling over FF 1 pages all by his lonesome. 

Look at all the stolen Nazi art which still sometimes come to light. 

This is why I would not buy the secret stuff. I refuse to be part of a scheme to aid and abet theft.

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For Hulk 1, I would buy it and have not problem keeping it away.

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3 hours ago, joefixit2 said:

For Hulk 1, I would buy it and have not problem keeping it away.

Yep, for sure. 

I only have a fraction of my account online (even though I share with close friends more often) so it would not be a problem to get a true grail and keep it private. 

Part of this depends on the page/price, etc.  ... if the available Hulk 3 page is superior and something I want more than the available Hulk 1 page, that's where I am going to buy

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Hulk 1 pages oh yes I could sign up for this. As far as FF 1and 2 pages I was looking through old CAF messages and one member clearly stated that the last page from FF 1 and 2 was sold to a collector, around 2000. Best Dom 

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18 minutes ago, trimpehulk said:

Hulk 1 pages oh yes I could sign up for this. As far as FF 1and 2 pages I was looking through old CAF messages and one member clearly stated that the last page from FF 1 and 2 was sold to a collector, around 2000. Best Dom 

Right.  Or "right," maybe.  If you were collecting in 1995/96, you heard this story: the final pages to FF 1 and FF 2 were available as a package.  $22,500.  I got multiple calls from multiple people who were all very excited about that.  I asked who was selling them, and the answers got vague.  One guy was named, but then it was said that wasn't right - that name had been put out there to divert attention from the real seller.  Then the pages weren't for sale any more.  Who got them?  Someone jokingly put out a Hollywood guy's name, and he became The Guy Who Bought The FF 1 and FF 2 Page, even though that wasn't true.  It's still unclear to me at least whether any of that was real or rumor.  I hope it was true.  If anyone else remembers more...

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There are two separate issues being discussed.

1) Most comic book art before some certain date (1980?) was stolen at some point. Marvel and DC held onto it rather than returning it to the artists. Then it was stolen from Marvel/DC or given away without the artists' permission. Much of it has since changed hands multiple times, though there are probably some pieces which have stayed with a single black hole owner. The market does not appear troubled by this; I have not seen a groundswell of support for returning the pages to the artists (or their estates) so that they can sell them at today's valuations.

 

2) What is the purpose of collecting? Some people mainly enjoy the knowledge of owning a collectible, even if it's locked in a warehouse somewhere like the Ark of the Covenant. Some people more enjoy looking at their art, even if the act of displaying it gradually causes degradation (which it often does) in the integrity of the piece. Some people enjoy being seen owning the art, because it elevates their social standing. Some people enjoy the shared pleasure of looking at the art along with a fellow connoisseur. And so on.

I"m new at this game, but so far I find myself primarily in the last category. When I get something, I think, "Who would gain pleasure from seeing this?" If I'm honest, there's probably a partial "social standing" component mixed in there, but it's not just that. Either way, having it and owning it Smaug-style, never showing it to anyone, is for me not a great value. But YMMV.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, RBerman said:

There are two separate issues being discussed.

1) Most comic book art before some certain date (1980?) was stolen at some point. Marvel and DC held onto it rather than returning it to the artists. Then it was stolen from Marvel/DC or given away without the artists' permission. Much of it has since changed hands multiple times, though there are probably some pieces which have stayed with a single black hole owner. The market does not appear troubled by this; I have not seen a groundswell of support for returning the pages to the artists (or their estates) so that they can sell them at today's valuations.

 

2) What is the purpose of collecting? Some people mainly enjoy the knowledge of owning a collectible, even if it's locked in a warehouse somewhere like the Ark of the Covenant. Some people more enjoy looking at their art, even if the act of displaying it gradually causes degradation (which it often does) in the integrity of the piece. Some people enjoy being seen owning the art, because it elevates their social standing. Some people enjoy the shared pleasure of looking at the art along with a fellow connoisseur. And so on.

I"m new at this game, but so far I find myself primarily in the last category. When I get something, I think, "Who would gain pleasure from seeing this?" If I'm honest, there's probably a partial "social standing" component mixed in there, but it's not just that. Either way, having it and owning it Smaug-style, never showing it to anyone, is for me not a great value. But YMMV.

You are a little off about your point no. 1. Before 1975, copyright law gave ownership of the artist's work to the company as "work for hire". That changed with amendments to the Copyright Act of 1975. So, it is not necessarily the case that older art was stolen. It could have been given away casually by the company's employees with proper authority to do so (whoever they may be). Back then, it was perceived as having little or no value so records of transfer would be lacking. 

Adams changed the view in comic book land by insisting he wanted ownership of his own work (before the amendments to the Copyright Act). On this point, the companies began to change their views and allowed them to have it even before the change in the law. This was also part of a groundswell of other artists who had similar feeling in other fields  and that was a major reason for the legal change.

Be thankful that a different aspect of the issue never caught on (which I think is true in Europe, but I am not sure): every time a piece of art is sold, the original artist gets a piece of the sale price.

Personally, I don't show most of my collection for the simple reason that people would be bored or think I am nuts ("You collect what?"). They may nod their heads and say how nice it is, but I doubt the average person gives a dam'n. Around here or at shows, it is different, or course.

Edited by Rick2you2
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9 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

Personally, I don't show most of my collection for the simple reason that people would be bored or think I am nuts ("You collect what?"). They may nod their heads and say how nice it is, but I doubt the average person gives a dam'n. Around here or at shows, it is different, or course.

Yes, comic book reading is a dying hobby, so the number of people interested in collecting comic book art for nostalgic reasons will drop off sharply in the next twenty years. I wonder what that will do to the investment collectors. So far, the people most interested in seeing my portfolio are other artists at conventions.

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1 minute ago, RBerman said:

Yes, comic book reading is a dying hobby, so the number of people interested in collecting comic book art for nostalgic reasons will drop off sharply in the next twenty years. I wonder what that will do to the investment collectors. So far, the people most interested in seeing my portfolio are other artists at conventions.

A lot of people have commented on it, and I agree, to some extent. The question will become whether the hobby can make the transition to graphic novels instead of floppies, or perhaps, digital.  I won't spend serious money on this stuff (e.g., $10K, or even close) because I can get a perfectly good "fix" with new art and commissions if I want. Nostalgia is nice, but there is so much good modern art out there, it makes little sense to spend a wad on a single memory. 

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14 hours ago, Unstoppablejayd said:

Pretty funny question to me Grant, because just last month I was given a somewhat similar question, obviously not on the same scale but similar none the less. A friend who is a massive collector but a known black hole collection offered me a page of something he knew I would love but the caveat was that I could not post it anywhere because he did not want other people bugging him for stuff. I was going to do it but while trying to pull the cash together he rescinded the offer within 24 hours. lol So i guess you can count me in the give me the art category!

Doesn't sound like something a friend would do...

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Posted (edited)

Well, any transaction involving an interior AF15 Spidy page would probably soon lead to a swat team at your door.🙂

Edited by mking78

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2 minutes ago, pemart1966 said:

Doesn't sound like something a friend would do...

Nah.. he doesn't want to sell... I know where it is and he knows I would want it so...I am ok with it.

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Posted (edited)

I’d love a secret FF 1 page. 
I’m great at keeping mum about my stuff. I own all the early Marvel covers and have never said a word about it.

Edited by KirbyJack

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Grant Turner said:

So if you had the money, and the chance to buy a page from Hulk #1 for example, but could never show it or tell anyone you had it.  Would you rather it? Or a piece of OA that’s on the market (say Hulk 3), considerably cheaper, and something you could crow about here, on CAF, and to anyone who’d listen?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but, umm, I'll try: Yeah, I'd buy it. Who cares about crowing about stuff? 

Edit: after reading comments - are you asking if I would buy something I knew was stolen? No. 

Edited by NoMan

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