Spider-Man 100-200 keys? 1 1

[Lazyboy]

4 hours ago, Myowncollector said:

All depends what your definition of key is. 194 first Appearance of black cat. 1st Appearance of a known popular character? Or first Appearance of of a catwoman "inspired" character by marvel comics? 

I'm not sure how originality matters. Nothing is truly original anyway. What matters is the character's impact on comics (and beyond).

4 hours ago, Myowncollector said:

Are all first appearances keys? Or do they have to have some value or collect ability or a popular character?

No. The character has to be recurring, at minimum.

4 hours ago, Myowncollector said:

What if that book fit none of that criteria ever but all the sudden movie rumors hit and now it does! So all of the sudden the book is a key? 

Movies don't make keys, they just disproportionately affect the demand for them. Again, value is simply the product of supply and demand. How real, intelligent, or long-lasting the demand is remains a different issue.

4 hours ago, Myowncollector said:

How about xforce 11. Hey let's make it so new mutants 98 didn't have a new character named domino but it was just copy cat in a new costume impersonating so we can sell more comic books and when the internet comes along people will be in these things call forums claiming it is not only a key but so much a key that they will ship it off and have it professionally graded and incased in plastic and it will be a wall book at comic shops instead of just a mass produced xforce book that nobody cares about.

Domino was hardly the driving force behind sales of the series. X-Force 11 is in no way, shape, or form the first appearance of Domino. But I'm not sure why (almost) any story is invalid. And we're talking about superhero comics here, so don't say it's too farfetched.

[MGsimba77]

4 hours ago, brentdevil said:

What would you say are "keys" from 200-400? Or, 1-100, I guess? Everyone lists too many, but I'm curious to your bare minimum approach.

1-100

1, 2, 3, 4, 14, 31, 32, 33, 39, 40, 42, 50, 

Biggest ones being 1, 31, 50

Very close borderline keys : 12(unmasking), 13, 15, 16, 18, 28, 90, 96(socially relevant drug issue no CCA)

Edit: I'm struggling with 86 a little. It's not her first appearance but the first updated catsuit which everybody recognizes. It's a noteworthy issue but is that really a key? 

200-400

238, 252, 298 (Mcfarlane), 300

Borderline keys : 212, 239, 258, 292(MJ says yes), 293, 294(Kraven story)

All I can think of after 300 is 361. Maybe 323 if you wanna be lenient only due to Mcfarlane doing Cap

Edited April 21, 2020 by MGsimba77

[bababooey]

For 1-100 I'd go with - 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 13, 14, 15, 20, 31, 39, 50 if forced to narrow it down I'd end up with 1, 3, 14 as being the only major keys & those seem to be the ones in Top SA key discussions.   

Books like 90, 96, 97 & 98 would be good additions for the 100-200 bronze age discussion but don't move the needle for me if the criteria is 1-100. 

[raybowles]

The last two replies are good posts.  I appreciate both of you for submitting your lists.  Can you make some comments on why you think #32 and #33 are keys?

[Gatsby77]

I know I'm about a week late to the party and the old-school purists have already hijacked this thread to argue there are only (max) three keys from ASM 100-200.

But...

I'd like to throw down the case for ASM # 162 (first Jigsaw).

Yes - this wasn't acknowledged, let alone broken out, for years. It was known just for being part of a pair of early Nightcrawler and early Punisher appearances.

But it absolutely *deserves* to be a major key.

Jigsaw the Punisher's archenemy - he is to the Punisher what Joker is to the Batman; what Sabretooth is to Wolverine.

*Especially* for those of us who grew up with the 80s-90s Punisher run. He featured not only in the Punisher Limited Series, but also a few key storylines of volume 2.

More recently, his status has been solidified by appearances in one of the three Punisher movies and as the primary villain of two Netflix seasons.

As such I'd put the book above the likes of ASM 101 (sorry Morbius - movie or no, you're D-list); 135, 136 or even ASM 194. (Then again, I've never gotten the love for Black Cat - she's never seemed more than a tertiary character for me).

[Lazyboy]

10 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

I know I'm about a week late to the party and the old-school purists have already hijacked this thread to argue there are only (max) three keys from ASM 100-200.

But...

I'd like to throw down the case for ASM # 162 (first Jigsaw).

Yes - this wasn't acknowledged, let alone broken out, for years. It was known just for being part of a pair of early Nightcrawler and early Punisher appearances.

But it absolutely *deserves* to be a major key.

Jigsaw the Punisher's archenemy - he is to the Punisher what Joker is to the Batman; what Sabretooth is to Wolverine.

*Especially* for those of us who grew up with the 80s-90s Punisher run. He featured not only in the Punisher Limited Series, but also a few key storylines of volume 2.

More recently, his status has been solidified by appearances in one of the three Punisher movies and as the primary villain of two Netflix seasons.

As such I'd put the book above the likes of ASM 101 (sorry Morbius - movie or no, you're D-list); 135, 136 or even ASM 194. (Then again, I've never gotten the love for Black Cat - she's never seemed more than a tertiary character for me).

Yeah, I really don't understand the backlash against 162, especially from people trying to convince everybody that 100 is somehow a key. And it's not like I'm the top Punisher fan/expert here.

[Lazyboy]

14 hours ago, brentdevil said:

Where we really got lost was in debating Batman 227. I don't really like it and think it's a stupid reason to 'key' something, but it pretty much is one now based on how many people want it through sheer "this comic is rare, I have to have it" desire.

Rarity, value, importance, and popularity are all different things. They cannot be used interchangeably because, again, they are all different things.

Batman 227 is not even close to being rare, it just has a popular cover. The issue that has the cover it swiped is close to being rare.

[bababooey]

2 hours ago, raybowles said:

The last two replies are good posts.  I appreciate both of you for submitting your lists.  Can you make some comments on why you think #32 and #33 are keys?

I don't think they are but it is an iconic Spidey story and probably the last important Ditko story in the title.  

[MR SigS]

22 hours ago, comicginger1789 said:

Okay

Ps...I guarantee I have more keys than you. And that makes me happy!

I was wondering when someone was going to pull out a measuring stick.

[comicginger1789]

8 hours ago, MGsimba77 said:

1-100

1, 2, 3, 4, 14, 31, 32, 33, 39, 40, 42, 50, 

Biggest ones being 1, 31, 50

Very close borderline keys : 12(unmasking), 13, 15, 16, 18, 28, 90, 96(socially relevant drug issue no CCA)

Edit: I'm struggling with 86 a little. It's not her first appearance but the first updated catsuit which everybody recognizes. It's a noteworthy issue but is that really a key? 

200-400

238, 252, 298 (Mcfarlane), 300

Borderline keys : 212, 239, 258, 292(MJ says yes), 293, 294(Kraven story)

All I can think of after 300 is 361. Maybe 323 if you wanna be lenient only due to Mcfarlane doing Cap

You think ASM 31 is a bigger key than 14, first Green Goblin? Can you share why  I love both but if I had to choose I would omit 31 and keep 14 as a definite key because of the character appearance. 

[comicginger1789]

Also ASM annual 1 fits in this all somewhere. First Sinister Six, always desired and wanted. 

[MGsimba77]

4 hours ago, raybowles said:

The last two replies are good posts.  I appreciate both of you for submitting your lists.  Can you make some comments on why you think #32 and #33 are keys?

Good question. Put it this way... 

These three issues 31-33 are the first important ASM trilogy. 32 may be the least important in that group but it's so interlinked with 33 that I have a hard time divorcing them so I'm being inclusive. 32/33 represent a major step up in Peter's development. He is forced to take off the diapers and grow up for the first time. There is real adversity being faced here both physically and emotionally by Peter essential getting put on the ropes! Look at it from the perspective of someone reading this for the first time back in the day. It's not clear that nobody dies in comics or that ASM will last forever. The reader doesn't know that so how are they not 100% compelled by this story?! From that perspective there appears to be a serious possibility that spider-man DOES NOT rid himself of that giant hunk of metal and ends up drowning. There is a real possibility Aunt May does not replace the radioactive blood threatening her life. His physical and emotional strength are both tested.

The human aspect of these 2 issues is powerful whether you're a fan or not! Even if someone is not into comics at all but reads asm33 for the first time they'd be hard pressed not to find it emotionally compelling. I've read 33 maybe a million times and I still get a lump in my throat every time! Never fails! I don't know any spidey fan that wouldn't. So my main criteria for something being a key is what's happening inside the pages. These 2 issues in particular could have a blank page as the cover and I'd still consider them keys! This panel I'm including is as powerful as it gets!

Aside from that, Ditkos artwork took a huge step up after #30 for whatever reason. Look at the first 5 pages of 33. I think its his finest work as an artist. Maybe they revealed Ock too soon as being the Planner they could have waited little for more impact but whatever, that's just a minor detail.  

Overall I probably included a few more than I could have in that list I made. I could have widdled it down some like 298 but I love Mcfarlane too much. But 32 33 are firmly in place as keys imo 

 

[MGsimba77]

39 minutes ago, comicginger1789 said:

You think ASM 31 is a bigger key than 14, first Green Goblin? Can you share why  I love both but if I had to choose I would omit 31 and keep 14 as a definite key because of the character appearance. 

Peter starts college. Gwen Stacy, Harry Osborne appearances. Flash meets both of them for the first time. Both 14 31 are very close I have no problem putting 14 ahead but imo the story in 31 puts it ahead. 

I'd actually buy 14 before 31 because the cover of 14 is so appealing but I have to put 31 as the more meaningful story. 

[comicginger1789]

22 minutes ago, MGsimba77 said:

Peter starts college. Gwen Stacy, Harry Osborne appearances. Flash meets both of them for the first time. Both 14 31 are very close I have no problem putting 14 ahead but imo the story in 31 puts it ahead. 

I'd actually buy 14 before 31 because the cover of 14 is so appealing but I have to put 31 as the more meaningful story. 

Good point! I view 31 as a one of the best stories too..actually from like 28 through to his last issue, Ditko/Stan were on fire I feel. 

Edited April 21, 2020 by comicginger1789

[Myowncollector]

12 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

I'm not sure how originality matters. Nothing is truly original anyway. What matters is the character's impact on comics (and beyond).

No. The character has to be recurring, at minimum.

Movies don't make keys, they just disproportionately affect the demand for them. Again, value is simply the product of supply and demand. How real, intelligent, or long-lasting the demand is remains a different issue.

Domino was hardly the driving force behind sales of the series. X-Force 11 is in no way, shape, or form the first appearance of Domino. But I'm not sure why (almost) any story is invalid. And we're talking about superhero comics here, so don't say it's too farfetched.

Appreciate the feedback but no need to put words in my mouth. Never said anything about domino as a series driving force. Just a 1st Appearance creates buzz for a issue. Nothing about story being invalid or farfetched. It was just lame. 

I dunno know or care what keys are. I collect whatever I want. You can make anything a key. Just take any character and change their race age gender or sexual orientation and you have a key. There was originality up until sometime in the past 40 years. Wolverine was pretty original. So was rap music. Eventually everything has been done, only so many things you can think up. New inventions keep popping up but as far as tv movies music comics it's been stale for a long time.

[Myowncollector]

10 hours ago, MGsimba77 said:

1-100

1, 2, 3, 4, 14, 31, 32, 33, 39, 40, 42, 50, 

Biggest ones being 1, 31, 50

Very close borderline keys : 12(unmasking), 13, 15, 16, 18, 28, 90, 96(socially relevant drug issue no CCA)

Edit: I'm struggling with 86 a little. It's not her first appearance but the first updated catsuit which everybody recognizes. It's a noteworthy issue but is that really a key? 

200-400

238, 252, 298 (Mcfarlane), 300

Borderline keys : 212, 239, 258, 292(MJ says yes), 293, 294(Kraven story)

All I can think of after 300 is 361. Maybe 323 if you wanna be lenient only due to Mcfarlane doing Cap

361 huge mega key. The first Appearance of red colored venom.

 

212 was the first Appearance of a lame nothing villain. But when that trailer showed asm212 on a boat. Bam it's a key. 

222 should be a key too, can easily see a car or plane with asm 222 in the next trailer.

[raybowles]

16 hours ago, MGsimba77 said:

Good question. Put it this way... 

These three issues 31-33 are the first important ASM trilogy. 32 may be the least important in that group but it's so interlinked with 33 that I have a hard time divorcing them so I'm being inclusive. 32/33 represent a major step up in Peter's development. He is forced to take off the diapers and grow up for the first time. There is real adversity being faced here both physically and emotionally by Peter essential getting put on the ropes! Look at it from the perspective of someone reading this for the first time back in the day. It's not clear that nobody dies in comics or that ASM will last forever. The reader doesn't know that so how are they not 100% compelled by this story?! From that perspective there appears to be a serious possibility that spider-man DOES NOT rid himself of that giant hunk of metal and ends up drowning. There is a real possibility Aunt May does not replace the radioactive blood threatening her life. His physical and emotional strength are both tested.

The human aspect of these 2 issues is powerful whether you're a fan or not! Even if someone is not into comics at all but reads asm33 for the first time they'd be hard pressed not to find it emotionally compelling. I've read 33 maybe a million times and I still get a lump in my throat every time! Never fails! I don't know any spidey fan that wouldn't. So my main criteria for something being a key is what's happening inside the pages. These 2 issues in particular could have a blank page as the cover and I'd still consider them keys! This panel I'm including is as powerful as it gets!

Aside from that, Ditkos artwork took a huge step up after #30 for whatever reason. Look at the first 5 pages of 33. I think its his finest work as an artist. Maybe they revealed Ock too soon as being the Planner they could have waited little for more impact but whatever, that's just a minor detail.  

Overall I probably included a few more than I could have in that list I made. I could have widdled it down some like 298 but I love Mcfarlane too much. But 32 33 are firmly in place as keys imo 

 

Thanks for your great response.  Very detailed with a lot of great information.  

[Lazyboy]

16 hours ago, Myowncollector said:

On 4/21/2020 at 7:22 AM, Lazyboy said:

Domino was hardly the driving force behind sales of the series. X-Force 11 is in no way, shape, or form the first appearance of Domino. But I'm not sure why (almost) any story is invalid. And we're talking about superhero comics here, so don't say it's too farfetched.

Appreciate the feedback but no need to put words in my mouth. Never said anything about domino as a series driving force. Just a 1st Appearance creates buzz for a issue. Nothing about story being invalid or farfetched. It was just lame.

My point was that you seemed to be saying that Marvel marketed X-Force 11 as the first appearance of Domino when it was released so they could sell more copies of the issue. I don't think anything exists that backs up that assertion, especially since it was absolutely not her first appearance.

[Lazyboy]

19 hours ago, MGsimba77 said:

32/33 represent a major step up in Peter's development. He is forced to take off the diapers and grow up for the first time. There is real adversity being faced here both physically and emotionally by Peter essential getting put on the ropes!

 Did you not read any of the previous issues? Who faced more adversity than Spider-Man?

19 hours ago, MGsimba77 said:

Look at it from the perspective of someone reading this for the first time back in the day. It's not clear that nobody dies in comics or that ASM will last forever.

There's no way they could have known that ASM would run until 1998, but to suggest that most readers thought he could really die at that point gives them very little credit.

[bpc3qh]

On 4/21/2020 at 6:24 AM, brentdevil said:

What would you say are "keys" from 200-400? Or, 1-100, I guess? Everyone lists too many, but I'm curious to your bare minimum approach.

My approach may be a little more expansive, but not by much. 86 is very borderline for me.

1-100: 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 13, 14, 15, 20, 39, 40, 42, 50, 86

200-400: 238, 252, 298, 300, 361