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polished_gem_comics aka diamond_comics_llc aka silver_valley_comics CGC slab cracking and overgrading for profit
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Started by James J Johnson,

595 posts in this topic

shadroch

shadroch

Posted
Posted
On 4/28/2020 at 7:42 AM, comix4fun said:

I have a word of caution (as a lawyer) for the seller that material misrepresentations of facts and details, such as this being from an original owner collection, used to induce a purchase or create a set of facts that are knowingly false and which purchasers then may rely upon in making their decision to contract and buy is a far more dangerous, legally precarious, and potentially contract voiding activity than anyone in a comic book forum stating factually that the statements made by the seller in question are incorrect and false on their face. 

My question is, given this fact pattern, and the false statements included in each and every one of the auction descriptions so far, and the factual statements made in this thread, along with the requirement to show specific economic damages in the absence of actual malice needed for punitive damages, aside from getting testimonial evidence linking this thread to that hypothetical economic damage, and putting aside the jurisdictional issues....how do you see those "lawsuits" going?

Isn't this the same as saying the car was only driven by an old lady to church? I believe puffery is permitted in advertising.

What is an original owner collection anyway? Every book has an original owner but every book sold by a dealer is not being sold by it's original owner. I got grief here on this board a few years ago over this. A shop had bought a large collection from its original owner and he sold me about a third of it. People told me that since I bought it from the dealer, I shouldn't claim it was an original owner collection. They were okay with the dealer calling it an original owner collection since he bought it from the owner. 

i'm not defending this seller, but asking about the general practice of selling..

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comix4fun

comix4fun

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5 minutes ago, shadroch said:

Isn't this the same as saying the car was only driven by an old lady to church? I believe puffery is permitted in advertising.

What is an original owner collection anyway? Every book has an original owner but every book sold by a dealer is not being sold by it's original owner. I got grief here on this board a few years ago over this. A shop had bought a large collection from its original owner and he sold me about a third of it. People told me that since I bought it from the dealer, I shouldn't claim it was an original owner collection. They were okay with the dealer calling it an original owner collection since he bought it from the owner. 

i'm not defending this seller, but asking about the general practice of selling..

"Tangential Puffery" is not a "Material Misrepresentation" and vice versa. So you're right that some tangential commentary unlikely to be material or induce action by the buyer isn't an issue.

Inducing someone to buy through fraudulent misrepresentation of some key piece of information, that they may not have acted free of, is always going to be a problem for a seller however. 

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comix4fun

comix4fun

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On 4/27/2020 at 1:27 PM, OuterboroGuy said:

There's a lot of righteous indignation in this thread . . . just a word of caution (from a lawyer) as a general matter . . . be careful interfering with the commercial relationships of other people.  You don't have any standing, and you might be opening yourself up to a lawsuit.  (Not that I think the seller you are discussing likely cares much about what anybody thinks, much less a bunch of comics nerds who have nothing better to do than police third-party sales on eBay.)  This guy is not committing fraud.  I highly doubt anyone is relying on the "one owner" claim in buying the comic.  In fact, the buyers are likely just hoping to do the same thing you are complaining about . . . i.e., buying a comic and flipping it for a profit.  Why else would anyone buy a copy of Marvel Premier #1 off eBay?

 

12 minutes ago, shadroch said:

Isn't this the same as saying the car was only driven by an old lady to church? I believe puffery is permitted in advertising.

What is an original owner collection anyway? Every book has an original owner but every book sold by a dealer is not being sold by it's original owner. I got grief here on this board a few years ago over this. A shop had bought a large collection from its original owner and he sold me about a third of it. People told me that since I bought it from the dealer, I shouldn't claim it was an original owner collection. They were okay with the dealer calling it an original owner collection since he bought it from the owner. 

i'm not defending this seller, but asking about the general practice of selling..

And I wanted to include the original statement I was responding to with my commentary.....see above yours. 
It was warning people discussing the topic were opening themselves up to legal jeopardy by making factual observations about the listings. That needed a response. 

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James J Johnson

James J Johnson

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1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

"Tangential Puffery" is not a "Material Misrepresentation" and vice versa. So you're right that some tangential commentary unlikely to be material or induce action by the buyer isn't an issue.

Inducing someone to buy through fraudulent misrepresentation of some key piece of information, that they may not have acted free of, is always going to be a problem for a seller however. 

Yes.  Cracking a book out of a 9.0 CGC slab (like the infamous FF 67 and many others), then listing that same book, representing it as "an unread, perfect gem, put away 50 years ago by the original purchaser, my father", or whomever, is not tangential puffery. From start to finish, it is misrepresentation. Belief in that utterly fraudulent hogwash will likely result in bids far in excess of listing it accurately, "this was CGC graded 9.0, but my belief is that it's an unread 9.6 quality gem". But the seller knows that will not elicit the 3X CGC 9.0 value bids he's shooting for. This is calculated, deliberate material misrepresentation; not puffery, IMO.

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OuterboroGuy

OuterboroGuy

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1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

 

And I wanted to include the original statement I was responding to with my commentary.....see above yours. 
It was warning people discussing the topic were opening themselves up to legal jeopardy by making factual observations about the listings. That needed a response. 

Well, I think it was more than people making factual observations.  I agree that's perfectly reasonable.  I thought I saw comments about people not involved in the transaction calling up eBay or something, which seems kind of like self-appointed cowboy stuff.  BUT if folks want to play comics police that's fine with me.  I'm certainly not going to go digging through a thread from six months ago.

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comix4fun

comix4fun

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9 minutes ago, OuterboroGuy said:

Well, I think it was more than people making factual observations.  I agree that's perfectly reasonable.  I thought I saw comments about people not involved in the transaction calling up eBay or something, which seems kind of like self-appointed cowboy stuff.  BUT if folks want to play comics police that's fine with me.  I'm certainly not going to go digging through a thread from six months ago.

And I don't know why my comments got bumped to current either. 

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comix4fun

comix4fun

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, shadroch said:

I bumped because I was commenting on the puffery aspect.  Was it hard to figure out?

Not your bump, someone else bumped it yesterday. At least that was the notification I got. 

 

Edited by comix4fun
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shadroch

shadroch

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53 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Not your bump, someone else bumped it yesterday. At least that was the notification I got. 

 

I don't know. I wanted your opinion on if puffery was considered illegal or not.  I have not followed most of this discussion. 

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comix4fun

comix4fun

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10 hours ago, shadroch said:

I don't know. I wanted your opinion on if puffery was considered illegal or not.  I have not followed most of this discussion. 

Well, that was a good question to ask, so I appreciate that. The distinction it important between what's material and not. 

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shadroch

shadroch

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34 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Well, that was a good question to ask, so I appreciate that. The distinction it important between what's material and not. 

Like many people, much of my "knowledge " of the law comes from watching Judge Judy, The Peoples Court and the other shows. I'm surprised sometimes when they dismiss what seems like misrepresentation as puffery, and vice versa.

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James J Johnson

James J Johnson

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3 hours ago, shadroch said:

Like many people, much of my "knowledge " of the law comes from watching Judge Judy, The Peoples Court and the other shows. I'm surprised sometimes when they dismiss what seems like misrepresentation as puffery, and vice versa.

My legal mentor:  

 

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James J Johnson

James J Johnson

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:bump:   

 

Same dog, same old predictable, "Original owner" tricks: 

"Hello Collectors I’m Going To Be Selling Off Most Of My Personal Collection. With Titles Such As Amazing Spider-Man, Incredible Hulk, Avengers, Fantastic Four, Silver Surfer & Much Much More! I’m Not A Dealer I’m Just A Collector That Loves This Hobby Of Collecting Comics! A lot Of The Books That We’ll Be Listing We’re Books That I Acquired From The 60s-80s. If There Is A Special Issue Your Looking For Chances Are I Have It Just Ask."

https://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-HIGH-GRADE-1ST-FULL-APP-OF-THE-WOLVERINE-CGC-THIS/402577436711?hash=item5dbb7c3027:g:GFwAAOSwOxtfvXtn  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-First-Appearance-of-the-Wolverine-25c-02456-Bronze-Age-/333737778626?hash=item4db4525dc2%3Ag%3A1WwAAOSw83Ffcy9a&nma=true&si=zvVMuV%2BK9q1QVdH%2FYd0Jm5TpeuY%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

And many others. 

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