Auctions during Covid 0

[CournalCrunch]

Hey all,

Participating in a Heritage auction for the first time tomorrow. I am a little confused by their site (might be due to the changes for Covid). Was hoping someone could help so I dont run into issues. After having read through pages and pages of their FAQs, I'm still not sure.

For an auction such as this: https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/marvel-mystery-comics-48-timely-1943-cgc-nm-96-off-white-to-white-pages-not-only-is-this-stunner-the-highest-g/a/7229-91072.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Open-MyTrackedLots-101116

..I was told earlier that there was a "Heritage Live" auction (online+phone) which will start right after proxy bidding ends. When I log in now it shows that proxy bidding has a countdown timer but now the Heritage Live indicator is not there any more. I had assumed that Proxy was for folks either not attending in person or had some conflict with the timing of the live auction.

So does this auction end Thursday morning Pacific Time? Or is that just the precursor to the actual auction which starts at some point after that?

Also let me know if I should know any tips on what to expect from Heritage auctions. I've bought on eBay a good amount so wanted a heads up to expect snipers or not here too...

Thanks!

[CournalCrunch]

ComicConnect has a 3 minute extending bidding after each new bid I believe. Heritage has "Bid protection" to make sure you don't get sniped, but I dont understand what the difference is between that and just setting a higher bid in the first place since they say its a "Secret maximum" so only shows the next bid increment vs the second bidder 

[jaybuck43]

1 hour ago, Bax77 said:

In the state of Texas it is legal for Heritage itself to bid on its own auctions. It is legal for them to shill bid them.

Another reason is that in the past people have set higher bids at the beginning just to see the bidding run up to one bid before their Max. It happened so many times that people got suspicious. You could almost set your watch as to when the "bump" would occur.

What are you talking about?  It is illegal for shill bidding in Texas.  16 4 67 67.70 "A  licensee may not knowingly use, or permit the use of, false bidders, cappers, or shills at any auction".

[jaybuck43]

4 hours ago, Bax77 said:

When did they change that? Would have to be recently, maybe the last couple years? Heritage was allowed to shill bid their own auctions for many years. Remember when their in-house community shill ID NPGresham was outted?

The N.P. Gresham account was and is used by Heritage employees who wish to bid on items, and which (per Texas law) is mentioned in their terms of use online. As long as heritage employees or the organization itself intends to make the purchase, they are permitted to bid. A shill bid is placed to raise the value and hurt other bidders, an internal bid is just allowing someone within the company to bid.

[bb8]

2 hours ago, jaybuck43 said:

The N.P. Gresham account was and is used by Heritage employees who wish to bid on items, and which (per Texas law) is mentioned in their terms of use online. As long as heritage employees or the organization itself intends to make the purchase, they are permitted to bid. A shill bid is placed to raise the value and hurt other bidders, an internal bid is just allowing someone within the company to bid.

Yeah that's the same thing.

[jaybuck43]

34 minutes ago, Bax77 said:

Six of one, half dozen of the other.

How so?  If I work for Heritage in the Movie Poster department, and I'm a fan of comic books, why shouldn't I be able to bid on those items?  A shill bidder has no intention of buying the book.  If I have a book up for auction, and I say to my friend "Hey bid on this to get the price up" that's shill bidding.  If I say to my friend "Hey, the action 1 I have is up for auction at Heritage, I know you wanted it" and he goes to bid on it, there's nothing wrong with that.  There's a reason why shill bidding is illegal but internal bidding isn't if it's "Six of one, half dozen of the other"

[jaybuck43]

22 minutes ago, Bax77 said:

Optics. Integrity? Conflict of interest?

 And you don't see any potential for abuse here? I'm pretty sure you're not that naive, so maybe intentionally obtuse? Either that or Heritage has made you a lot of money over the years. 

What about when they bump up the bidding to just under the reserve price, so that the next bid meets reserve? That's a second type of shill bidding.

Maybe you just don't like the word "shill" because it's not legalese? Ok it's not shill bidding, it's "using any legal means available to maximize the economic potential of the comic for the seller". Still wrong.

1) I'm a black hole collector.  I don't sell items from my collection.   I have only ever sold a few, lower grade books because I replaced them, and when I did I did not sell though Heritage.  I have only ever bought through HA.

2) Very few items on HA ever have a reserve, and when they do, they get auto bumped to the reserve price.  This is indicated by an * so it is clear to any bidder that those "bids" are not real, but rather bumps to the reserve.  As a bidder, I appreciate that for several reasons.  1) If I want it, I can bid over the reserve price and get it. 2) I can see what the reserve price is. 3) It puts the piece in play.  I have "won" several items on CL where I was the high bidder, and was willing to go higher, but because no-one else bid me up, it didn't hit the reserve and I didn't win the piece.  Plus I have no idea what the reserve was, so I have no idea how close I was.  

[Avi]

Can either of you @jaybuck43 or @Bax77 answer the OPs original question?

So does this auction end Thursday morning Pacific Time? Or is that just the precursor to the actual auction which starts at some point after that?

 

[CournalCrunch]

Hey Avi thanks for your note, 

I have been researching a little more and just tracked a few of the lots before mine and it looks like the auction starts as soon as the precursor bidding finishes. It just goes through the lot numbers in order after that. At least thats what I have been able to gather so far

[Avi]

8 minutes ago, CournalCrunch said:

Hey Avi thanks for your note, 

I have been researching a little more and just tracked a few of the lots before mine and it looks like the auction starts as soon as the precursor bidding finishes. It just goes through the lot numbers in order after that. At least thats what I have been able to gather so far

So the auction bidding starts at the last high bid from the precursor. Dont really understand the point of the precursor bidding. 

[jaybuck43]

11 minutes ago, CournalCrunch said:

Hey Avi thanks for your note, 

I have been researching a little more and just tracked a few of the lots before mine and it looks like the auction starts as soon as the precursor bidding finishes. It just goes through the lot numbers in order after that. At least thats what I have been able to gather so far

The auction has started today. It’s a live auction. So the proxy bids are people bidding online until it then opens on the live floor. When it hammers on the floor then the bids are over. The live bid opens at whatever the proxy bid closed at. So if you bid $10,000 on a piece and the current price is $8,000 the auctioneer will open at $8,000. If no other bids, it closes at $8,000. If someone bids then you’ll automatically bid back at the next increment (so they bid it to $8,500 and it will auto bid back to $9,000. Etc until the $10,000 bid is out. 

[CournalCrunch]

As far as I could tell its just for folks who cannot make the live auction itself. So if you have work etc you don't miss out on your lot. And I guess there is some gamesmanship at play to have the bid higher so some folk are put off. Just conjecture though. I'm sure people with more history can attest to why

What are you bidding for? Best of luck!

[CournalCrunch]

Thanks for everyone's insights on this. Auction ended up going well! 

 

[NP_Gresham]

On 4/30/2020 at 9:24 AM, jaybuck43 said:

  If I work for Heritage in the Movie Poster department, and I'm a fan of comic books, why shouldn't I be able to bid on those items?  

Because other bidders are paying a 19.5% vig.

NP gresham pays no such premium, then turns around and flips the book on eBay or some other site.

There are plenty of shady dealings going on over there that lead to RICO charges and run-ins with postal inspectors.

But it really baffles me why anyone would pay way over FMV to buy on that site.

 

[revat]

10 hours ago, NP_Gresham said:

Because other bidders are paying a 19.5% vig.

NP gresham pays no such premium, then turns around and flips the book on eBay or some other site.

There are plenty of shady dealings going on over there that lead to RICO charges and run-ins with postal inspectors.

But it really baffles me why anyone would pay way over FMV to buy on that site.

 

Some items are truly rare and really can’t be found elsewhere at any price.  And some people really don’t care about paying above market because money at those amounts mean nothing to them.  And others just love playing the game, and will pay premium to do so.  And sometimes you can still catch deals if you work hard enough.  And some people are just (none of the categories are mutually exclusive).  

[CournalCrunch]

Good way to put it. Having only participated in two of these auction it’s left me scratching my head how some items are hugely overpriced and some do not gain momentum at all. 
 

More similar to stock trading than I had expected. 

[William-James88]

On 4/29/2020 at 6:23 PM, CournalCrunch said:

ComicConnect has a 3 minute extending bidding after each new bid I believe. Heritage has "Bid protection" to make sure you don't get sniped, but I dont understand what the difference is between that and just setting a higher bid in the first place since they say its a "Secret maximum" so only shows the next bid increment vs the second bidder 

Theres a difference. The increment can be higher than your highest bid.

At a certain point, increments go from something like 20$ to 25$ to 50$ and it'n not always easy to keep up. So this way you know you have a better chance of getting what you want since they will set the right bid amount which might exceed what you placed as a highest bid. I preffer highest bid though because then I know the price I am willing to pay. Whoever pays more than that price, they can have it.

[William-James88]

Also, forgot to say, but Heritage also extends time, like any typical auction. They do the going once going twice bit for every bid so there isnt any sniping really. Hence why there atent any deals or lucky wins to be had, its just whoever was going to pay the most for it will get it, as is the point of an auction.