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Bigger Silver Age Key: Daredevil 1 or Avengers 1?
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Started by bronze johnny,

Bigger Silver Age Key: Daredevil 1 or Avengers 1  

114 members have voted

  1. 1. Which is the Bigger Silver Age Key: Daredevil 1 or Avengers 1?


68 posts in this topic

Beige

Beige

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TV / Movies only really answers this.

Avengers - high end Marvel movie series with A grade actors. Individual movies of the characters in the Avengers.

Daredevil - Netflix series (although Charlie Cox was great), and some very average Movies, with Electra and Bullseye spin off movies.

 

So Avengers currently.

It would be interesting to see what would have happened had the roles been reversed.

With the same exposure - an A grade set of actors in a $300,000,000 Daredevil blockbuster may well turn the tables.

Pricewise - DD #1 is undervalued - it could, with the right Feige 'push' eventually become a top 10 SA Key. For me, it just scrapes into the top #20 currently.

So Avengers #1 - but look out for DD #1 making a run if Feige greenlights it for the MCU in a few years.

Great question, and I'm sure a healthy debate will follow!

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Shaun C89

Shaun C89

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I think DD 1 has a lot of room for growth compared to the other big silver age keys. I am tired of movie hype driving demand, however that is where we are right now, all it takes is a movie announcement to drive the price of this book up. 
 

Avengers 1 is a favorite of mine, I consider the cover to be classic Kirby. I am not sure how the future value of this book will look like, though. I do think that the first appearance of the Avengers team is very important book and worth having.

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Sweet Lou 14

Sweet Lou 14

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IMHO it's Avengers #1 and it's not even close.  I love DD and was very excited to complete the run, but his #1 is the weakest of all the "big" Silver Age Marvel keys, both as measured in monetary value and in terms of "historical significance" as you put it.  DD is a fairly isolated character in the Marvel Universe, not only now in the age of movies and TV but even back then in the 1960s.  Quick, name the two biggest DD villains -- you'll likely say the Kingpin and the Punisher, who were both introduced in Amazing Spider-Man.  (If instead you said the Owl and the Gladiator, well you've kinda made my point.)

Frank Miller, and the writers and artists who came later, did a great job deepening DD's character and broadening his universe, with some truly elevated storytelling throughout much of the 1980s - 2000s.  There were long stretches where Daredevil was my favorite book and the first one I read when I got home from the comic shop.  But there's nothing in the Silver Age Daredevil run to match the universe-building going on in the Avengers title, starting with #1 (which not only brings all of these heroes together, but kicks off the three-issue arc that, along with FF #12, definitively cements the Hulk's place within the Marvel Universe).  What did Lee and Kirby follow that up with?  Not much, just bringing back Captain Freaking America and immediately cementing his role within the Marvel universe.

I still feel that the FF is the title where Kirby and Lee did their most significant work in defining and expanding the Marvel Universe, though their work on Thor shouldn't be overlooked.  Once past its first few issues, the Avengers pales in comparison to those majestic runs.  But in terms of lasting impact, the Avengers storylines still far outpace anything going on in Daredevil over the same span.

But again, I certainly believe in DD #1 as a key book and I do think its relative affordability makes it an attractive investment!

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Mr bla bla

Mr bla bla

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13 hours ago, Sweet Lou 14 said:

IMHO it's Avengers #1 and it's not even close.  I love DD and was very excited to complete the run, but his #1 is the weakest of all the "big" Silver Age Marvel keys, both as measured in monetary value and in terms of "historical significance" as you put it.  DD is a fairly isolated character in the Marvel Universe, not only now in the age of movies and TV but even back then in the 1960s.  Quick, name the two biggest DD villains -- you'll likely say the Kingpin and the Punisher, who were both introduced in Amazing Spider-Man.  (If instead you said the Owl and the Gladiator, well you've kinda made my point.)

Frank Miller, and the writers and artists who came later, did a great job deepening DD's character and broadening his universe, with some truly elevated storytelling throughout much of the 1980s - 2000s.  There were long stretches where Daredevil was my favorite book and the first one I read when I got home from the comic shop.  But there's nothing in the Silver Age Daredevil run to match the universe-building going on in the Avengers title, starting with #1 (which not only brings all of these heroes together, but kicks off the three-issue arc that, along with FF #12, definitively cements the Hulk's place within the Marvel Universe).  What did Lee and Kirby follow that up with?  Not much, just bringing back Captain Freaking America and immediately cementing his role within the Marvel universe.

I still feel that the FF is the title where Kirby and Lee did their most significant work in defining and expanding the Marvel Universe, though their work on Thor shouldn't be overlooked.  Once past its first few issues, the Avengers pales in comparison to those majestic runs.  But in terms of lasting impact, the Avengers storylines still far outpace anything going on in Daredevil over the same span.

But again, I certainly believe in DD #1 as a key book and I do think its relative affordability makes it an attractive investment!

DDs got soo many interesting runs that add to the mythos: Miller, Bendis, Brubaker, Waid among others. Its just a great character.

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Myowncollector

Myowncollector

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Personally I want the 1st appearance. Avengers 1 will never be in my collection long. Tons of books I would rather have.

Bigger key I dont know. Avengers is worth more but what's the print run difference. Poll says Avengers so good enough for me.

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Sweet Lou 14

Sweet Lou 14

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1 hour ago, Myowncollector said:

Personally I want the 1st appearance. Avengers 1 will never be in my collection long. Tons of books I would rather have.

Bigger key I dont know. Avengers is worth more but what's the print run difference. Poll says Avengers so good enough for me.

DD #1 is rumored to be a more common book but I don't have the stats to back that up.

Avengers #1 in 9.0 is worth approximately double DD #1 in 9.4 ... that is a mammoth difference in current market value.

Edited by Sweet Lou 14
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bronze johnny

bronze johnny

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It’s always important to mention that both books are classic. Interestingly, if this poll were about X-Men 1 and Avengers 1, the former SA key would come out ahead over the latter book. The Avengers were the more popular team during the Silver Age and up to the Summer of ‘75. We know what happened when the X-Men went on to dominate Marvel Comics for the decades that followed GS X-Men 1 and X-Men 94. Still, the X-Men title was cancelled during the early Bronze Age. With speculation running wild and the recent successful films, Avengers have their more popular moment but X-Men 1 is the bigger key.

How is this relevant to Daredevil 1’s comparison to Avengers 1? X-Men 1 has first key appearances of the team including that of one of the greatest Marvel villains ever. The history of a comic book character or team of characters has also been defined by its measured success in terms of a number of factors that includes length of publication, storylines and their impact on readers, sales, and artist(s). The collector will weigh these factors along with other criteria in defining a comic book character or team’s place when attempting to list a hierarchy of books they consider significant or key. Comparing a ‘63 Marvel SA key to one from the Class of ‘64 puts the later year at a disadvantage when the number of available copies are considered. Hornhead’s cover isn’t the best among the SA Marvel keys but it does have Spidey on it. Avengers 1 has the more preferred cover among Marvel fans. That said, first appearances are the most historically significant issues and the comparison between these books is a first appearance of a character with that of a team of characters that have already appeared. This is a big criticism of Brave and the Bold 28 since it’s not the first appearance of any of the team’s characters.

There was a time when I polled boardies as to whether Brave and the Bold 28 was a bigger key than Showcase 22 and the votes went for the Justice League’s first appearance. That was a time when speculators were using the upcoming movie to make money off Brave and the Bold 28. It was also the post-Ryan Reynolds as Green Lantern movie disappointment era.

The hype around a book will influence the degree of its status. The collector realizes this and will take a step back before evaluating the historical place that book has. It’s also important for a collector to understand that the “market value” of a book includes an array of influences that serve different goals at a specific time which can easily change at any moment. The “essence” of the comic book hobby is determined by a consensus of collectors. This of course includes defining the key books. The fact that someone is willing to pay x amount of money for a book does not define that book’s place in the hobby. The best that can be said is that it was purchased for that price. The fair market value will be defined when a book has sold a number of times through a reputable sales venue. A consensus of collectors will make a fair determination as to how many sales is enough to qualify as the book’s fair market value. This can be a difficult determination to make at times for collectors given the lack of transparency in auctions and “buy it now“ options since it’s unclear whether the sales are finalized and if the auction winner or purchaser is the actual owner of the book or someone having bid or bought the book on their behalf. As collectors, we must do our best to accurately identify a book’s value and in circumstances when it’s unclear, give greater weight to its historical significance.

The SA Marvel keys are the most sought after books for a number of reasons. The biggest having to do with relative success in other mediums that draw some new genuine collectors and A cadre of speculators and flippers hoping for a repeat of what happened in California in 1848. 

Daredevil 1 and Avengers 1 are on just about everyone’s must have list. Both are readily available. In fact, we may someday see a SA Marvel keys “Purchase On Demand App” given how available they are. The comparison between these books has little to do with any relative scarcity argument. For the strict collector, it comes down to which you prefer and how they’ve “aged” through the half century since their inception. The debate over where these classics have gone and what defines them today is for the comic book collector to determine. The films are fun but are very limited in defining these classics. Any collection should include both key books but there are collectors that may prefer only one. 

Team books have again taken a second seat to individual characters in the comic book world. There are exceptions like the X-Men but how many teams include Wolverine - the most popular character of the last half century? The X-Men and Wolverine owe much to one another. The Avengers have tried so many line-ups but never achieved the success of the X-Men even with Spidey as an Avenger. How many teams including the Avengers are based on the X-Men model of a diverse team? The Avengers are Marvel’s version of the Justice League only more successful. Daredevil, on the other hand, is a unique Marvel SA creation. The blind crime fighter who uses his super senses to adapt to the surrounding environment. His alter ego, Matt Murdock, is among the most interesting to come out of the SA. Daredevil has among the most memorable story arcs and every decade gives rise to classic storylines. Daredevil continues to grow from his first appearance while the Avengers changes line-ups. The relationships between the team members and the challenges that arise among the Avengers is as an essential part of the history of this great team. The great sagas and crossovers helped further define the Avengers. Avengers and Daredevil are different representations of the best of the Marvel Universe. 

In the end it comes down to preference but the first appearance of an original character will outweigh the team of no first appearances. In a way, Avengers 1 is an accessible way of collecting the team members than the more challenging issues that assemble the team first and foremost or what I call the Avengers Assembled Collection: Tales of Suspense 39; Journey into Mystery 83; Tales to Astonish 27 & 44; and Incredible Hulk 1. 
 

Best,

john

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piper

piper

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@bronze johnny I've been toying with putting an avengers assembled run together.  The Hulk 1 is going too hurt to pay for if I decide to do it, but since I already have a TOS39, AV4 and JIM83....

I always preferred reading Avengers over X-Men but I know I'm in the minority,  I have zero interest in owning an XM1.  GSXM1 and Hulk 181 are the X-Men keys to own in my opinion.

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Sweet Lou 14

Sweet Lou 14

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38 minutes ago, piper said:

@bronze johnny I've been toying with putting an avengers assembled run together.  The Hulk 1 is going too hurt to pay for if I decide to do it, but since I already have a TOS39, AV4 and JIM83....

I always preferred reading Avengers over X-Men but I know I'm in the minority,  I have zero interest in owning an XM1.  GSXM1 and Hulk 181 are the X-Men keys to own in my opinion.

X-Men 1 is a very complicated key for that very reason.  The character with the most enduring interest and popularity in the book is the villain.  None of the original five X-Men ever captured readers' imagination in any real way and none of them could carry a book on their own, the very brief Bronze Age run of the rebooted furry Beast notwithstanding.  The reboot of Marvel Girl as Phoenix puts a bit of an asterisk on things but that's almost a separate character and is treated by collectors as such with X-Men #101 and #134 getting attention as "first appearances" of a sort.

As I said above, the Avengers wasn't absolute top-shelf material once you get past the first 16 issues or so, but it was solid throughout the Silver Age.  The X-Men stories were much more uneven and (speaking as a collector who has assembled all of these runs) I can say that X-Men is second only to Daredevil in affordability.  There aren't many real keys in the first 66 issues, and then of course the next 27 issues are reprints.  The books just aren't at the level of Spidey or FF, and IMHO lag behind Marvel's other Silver Age titles as well.

X-Men 1 and Avengers 1 are pretty close to even in monetary value, but for obvious reasons speculators are going to have more interest right now in X-Men 1, seeing upside in that book with Disney's acquisition of the characters whereas the Avengers have had their decade as the centerpiece of the MCU.  It will be interesting to see whether the Avengers movie franchise continues with a completely new lineup.  You would think that an Avengers vs. X-Men movie would be inevitable, but what if it takes another decade for them to build up to that?

Edited by Sweet Lou 14
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Sweet Lou 14

Sweet Lou 14

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37 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

Daredevil 1 and Avengers 1 are on just about everyone’s must have list. Both are readily available.

Lots of interesting observations and well-argued opinions in your post.  But I have to disagree with the quoted text above.  I would argue that demand for Avengers 1 far outstrips that of Daredevil 1 -- I don't think most Marvel collectors consider DD 1 a "must have" at all.  (For the record, I do.)

As for supply, it's not debatable -- supply of DD 1 is significantly greater than supply of Avengers 1, especially in high grade.  A quick look at the census shows the following totals (including blue, yellow, green, and purple labels):

  • 9.8 -- 2 copies of DD 1, 0 copies of Avengers 1
  • 9.6 -- 25 vs. 5
  • 9.4 -- 44 vs. 11
  • 9.2 -- 63 vs. 16
  • 9.0 -- 103 vs. 32
  • 8.5 -- 128 vs. 61
  • 8.0 -- 180 vs. 70

Speaking for myself, I decided to grab one of those 44 9.4 copies of DD 1 a couple of years ago.  But I'm still sitting on an 8.0 of Avengers 1, wondering if and when I'm going to break down and go for a 9.0, which will cost me at least double what that 9.4 DD 1 cost me.  The market for these two books is not even close.

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jjonahjameson11

jjonahjameson11

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Before I collected original comic art, I was heavily into Marvel Silver Age Keys (read: 1st appearances).  And I owned multiple copies of each key simultaneously for many years (this is pre-Avengers movie hype), except for DD#1.

i never sought out that book because to me, DD was a lame character with a very weak supporting cast, and more importantly, because Daredevil didn’t really start until Miller came on-board.  Your mileage may vary, but it’s by far the weakest of the Marvel Keys.

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