Incredible Hulk #1 (1962) CGC Census vs. Population Report 1 1

[Ron C.]

Incredible Hulk #1 has always been a challenging book to find in high grade (at any price). The CGC Census has one 9.4 and 6 9.2s that have been graded. Since another company has just started a Population Report, I was curious to see what numbers were reported for a few of my CGC books as well as some more impressive ones that I will likely never own again.

The Population report for IH #1 lists 5   9.8s, 4 9.6s and 2 9.4s.  Why have I not seen ANY of these books listed for sale on secondary auction sites?  I was going to be snarky and end with "asking for a friend"...... but would actually appreciate more insightful responses. I am fully aware of the existing CGC/Voldy/PG# dynamics. Thanks.

[thunsicker]

First of all if you click through it shows 4 of the 5 to be Altered Type - Restored.  So I'm assuming those are the frankenbooks that there was some push back on a while ago (and a CGC lawsuit over).  No idea about the fifth.

EDIT:  And when you click through to the picture of the 5th it shows its restored as well.

Edited May 6, 2020 by thunsicker

[valiantman]

I believe there may be a segment of collectors who do grade just for their personal collection, so you'll need to wait for their retirement/death to see those books.  CGC is known to have the greater secondary market presence, so grading-to-sell is a CGC thing... unless you're in Oregon, then overgrading-locally-to-sell is probably your bread-and-butter (my apologies to CGC users from Oregon, but the vast majority of the Comic-Garage-Grading / Pretend-Grader-X users are in Oregon down the street from you).

Edited May 6, 2020 by valiantman

[valiantman]

10 minutes ago, thunsicker said:

First of all if you click through it shows 4 of the 5 to be Altered Type - Restored.  So I'm assuming those are the frankenbooks that there was some push back on a while ago (and a CGC lawsuit over).  No idea about the fifth.

EDIT:  And when you click through to the picture of the 5th it shows its restored as well.

That's crazy that they're listed under "Blue".  Their population report separates out "Restored" in red, gives it a separate total.  All 5 of the C*CS 9.8 "Blue" Incredible Hulk #1 are Restored, too?

Ugh.  They might as well have skipped the population report release.

EDIT:  It's the same 4 books listed as C*CS 9.8 Restored.  They've got 9 total, 5 blue and 4 red, but it's zero "universal" and only 5 total books.

Edited May 6, 2020 by valiantman

[James J Johnson]

29 minutes ago, Ron C. said:

Incredible Hulk #1 has always been a challenging book to find in high grade (at any price). The CGC Census has one 9.4 and 6 9.2s that have been graded. Since another company has just started a Population Report, I was curious to see what numbers were reported for a few of my CGC books as well as some more impressive ones that I will likely never own again.

The Population report for IH #1 lists 5   9.8s, 4 9.6s and 2 9.4s.  Why have I not seen ANY of these books listed for sale on secondary auction sites?  I was going to be snarky and end with "asking for a friend"...... but would actually appreciate more insightful responses. I am fully aware of the existing CGC/Voldy/PG# dynamics. Thanks.

I may be wrong, so someone please correct me if I'm not right, but I believe that these CBCS graded high end Hulks are extensively restored to such a sever degree, that CGC will not slab them as original, even with purple labels. They're the handiwork of a restorer who literally repaints the entire cover over the existing cover, after the Frankenbook is cobbled back together into one piece. It's like having an artist recreate a cover, paint it right over the existing cover. I saw a few of these "9.8"s online. They struck me the same as if you put a bowl of artificial waxed fruit next to a real bowl of fruit. A good decision by CGC, IMO, to pass and leave it to the other guys to slab Dr. Frankenstein's extreme Frankenbooks, definitely in a class by themselves as far as restored books go. .

Edited May 6, 2020 by James J Johnson

[Ron C.]

Thank you for the responses. I will be interested to see what other books show up in this report over time and am certainly happy that I made a clearer choice.

[joeypost]

39 minutes ago, Ron C. said:

Incredible Hulk #1 has always been a challenging book to find in high grade (at any price). The CGC Census has one 9.4 and 6 9.2s that have been graded. Since another company has just started a Population Report, I was curious to see what numbers were reported for a few of my CGC books as well as some more impressive ones that I will likely never own again.

The Population report for IH #1 lists 5   9.8s, 4 9.6s and 2 9.4s.  Why have I not seen ANY of these books listed for sale on secondary auction sites?  I was going to be snarky and end with "asking for a friend"...... but would actually appreciate more insightful responses. I am fully aware of the existing CGC/Voldy/PG# dynamics. Thanks.

Ask and you will receive.

Hulk #1

[Beige]

22 minutes ago, joeypost said:

Ask and you will receive.

Hulk #1

Ugh.

It ceased to be a comic years ago - for me, thats a reproduction copy.

I have no idea why people would want that book in any grade.

Your personal mileage may vary of course. (not yours Joey)

[valiantman]

3 minutes ago, Beige said:

Ugh.

It ceased to be a comic years ago - for me, thats a reproduction copy.

I have no idea why people would want that book in any grade.

Your personal mileage may vary of course. (not yours Joey)

The moment comics reached $100,000+ the possibility that they would become more like valuable paintings became a reality.  How many times have you seen a painting on Antiques Roadshow with "a little damage" that is worth $X but it would be worth $X + $5,000 if they got $3,000 worth of restoration.

If there's a profit in restoration, it will happen... and paintings have been profitable after restoration for hundreds of years.  The only thing that held comics back was the value (would it be worth it)?  Now it's worth it.

[Beige]

16 minutes ago, valiantman said:

The moment comics reached $100,000+ the possibility that they would become more like valuable paintings became a reality.  How many times have you seen a painting on Antiques Roadshow with "a little damage" that is worth $X but it would be worth $X + $5,000 if they got $3,000 worth of restoration.

If there's a profit in restoration, it will happen... and paintings have been profitable after restoration for hundreds of years.  The only thing that held comics back was the value (would it be worth it)?  Now it's worth it.

Absolutely respect your position, and can see where you are coming from.

I guess that because all my personal collection books are unrestored, I couldn't go this far down the rabbit-hole to claim I had a "9.8"  mega key.

I get the sellers motivation, not the buyers.

Even if Hulk #1 doubled in price in blue label (CGC) - I can't see a buyer of this book getting a similar return.

Just my

 

[valiantman]

3 minutes ago, Beige said:

Absolutely respect your position, and can see where you are coming from.

I guess that because all my personal collection books are unrestored, I couldn't go this far down the rabbit-hole to claim I had a "9.8"  mega key.

I get the sellers motivation, not the buyers.

Even if Hulk #1 doubled in price in blue label (CGC) - I can't see a buyer of this book getting a similar return.

Just my

That's not to say that every art collector buys restored paintings, and I buy comics that are not restored because I rarely buy expensive comics... but everything about the comic book hobby is modeled after an older hobby - slabs started with coins, restoration started with artworks, all these 1:1000 variants started with premium chase sportscards.

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, joeypost said:

Ask and you will receive.

Hulk #1

Here's it's Frankensister, the artificial CBCS 9.8 Showcase 4 with the same Franken-treatment:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Showcase-4-CBCS-9-8-KEY-1956-COMIC-BOOK-1ST-APP-SILVER-AGE-FLASH-RESTORED-/323707301152 

 

[James J Johnson]

49 minutes ago, valiantman said:

The moment comics reached $100,000+ the possibility that they would become more like valuable paintings became a reality.  How many times have you seen a painting on Antiques Roadshow with "a little damage" that is worth $X but it would be worth $X + $5,000 if they got $3,000 worth of restoration.

If there's a profit in restoration, it will happen... and paintings have been profitable after restoration for hundreds of years.  The only thing that held comics back was the value (would it be worth it)?  Now it's worth it.

Not this though. There's only one original of a painting so far more latitude for repair is extended. Here, you've got a Hulk 1 and Showcase 4 that started out in the 1.0 to 2.0 area that basically were rebuilt than repainted over most, if not all, of the original surface. There's a reason why CGC won't slab these. They're comic recreations, right over the original comic, not restorations.

[valiantman]

9 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

The moment comics reached $100,000+ the possibility that they would become more like valuable paintings became a reality.  How many times have you seen a painting on Antiques Roadshow with "a little damage" that is worth $X but it would be worth $X + $5,000 if they got $3,000 worth of restoration.

If there's a profit in restoration, it will happen... and paintings have been profitable after restoration for hundreds of years.  The only thing that held comics back was the value (would it be worth it)?  Now it's worth it.

Not this though. There's only one original of a painting so far more latitude for repair is extended. Here, you've got a Hulk 1 and Showcase 4 that started out in the 1.0 to 2.0 area that basically were rebuilt than repainted over most, if not all, of the original surface. There's a reason why CGC won't slab these. They're comic recreations, right over the original comic, not restorations.

Yeah, they are not unique like artworks, but the dollar value is in the same range, so the "professionals" come out to play.  I hope you're right that it's comics in the 1.0 to 2.0 range, because it would be a shame if books that somehow survived in 6.0+ condition were being frankenbuilt up to 9.0+.  The book was fine (literally), there's no need to pretend it's "near mint".

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

Yeah, they are not unique like artworks, but the dollar value is in the same range, so the "professionals" come out to play.  I hope you're right that it's comics in the 1.0 to 2.0 range, because it would be a shame if books that somehow survived in 6.0+ condition were being frankenbuilt up to 9.0+.  The book was fine (literally), there's no need to pretend it's "near mint".

Just look at the procedures performed. Everything but the kitchen sink from spine splits and pieces to the final paint job. These are starting off at the bottom end of the barrel, not the midway point. They're being cobbled together, rebuilt then plastered and painted over. As stated, there's a reason why CGC has no issues with slabbing restored books but draws the line with these.

[HarrisonJohn]

Just buy a reprint. 

[lighthouse]

None of these Hulk 1s are as cool as mine. 

[Gotham Kid]

18 hours ago, Ron C. said:

The Population report for IH #1 lists 5   9.8s, 4 9.6s

most if not all these 'books' are IGB super-restored copies

IGB are a husband/wife team that take resto to the next level. They call it 'restoration', most would call it 'recreation'.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Gotham Kid

[theCapraAegagrus]

47 minutes ago, lighthouse said:

None of these Hulk 1s are as cool as mine. 

That's because this is your book:

[valiantman]

42 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

That's because this is your book:

Davvy-Dee?  Davvy-Dee?

Where is Davvy-Dee Banner at?