CGC found restoration in 2 books i bought. Should the Comic shop refund my CGC fees in addition to my purchase price? 1 1

[BlowUpTheMoon]

Whooops! responded to the wrong post.  

Edited May 16, 2020 by BlowUpTheMoon

[manofsteel]

2 minutes ago, Lest 2 Art said:

I think what he's saying is if you're going to use CGC as your resto detector instead of learning to do it yourself then that's the price of business.

Technically, I used CGC for the book to be graded and slabbed. I never thought the book would come back restored due to the sellers longevity on eBay with perfect feedback selling comics. I DO feel he could've at least responded to me about the fees. It is what it is, I'm not complaining, was just sharing a similar story with the OP. 

[Lazyboy]

3 hours ago, manofsteel said:

The book was advertised as unrestored, and it turned out to be restored. Had I not chosen to sub the book, I never would've known till X amount of years later when I went to sell it. Where I would've taken a huge loss on it. But that's ok with you? Ooooook, pal. 

The seller's responsibility is limited to the transaction between the two of you. He should have refunded the full price paid, including shipping, and paid for return shipping.

Other money you spent is not relevant. Hypothetical situations are not relevant.

The same applies to the OP.

[BlowUpTheMoon]

3 hours ago, manofsteel said:

I never thought the book would come back restored due to the sellers longevity on eBay with perfect feedback selling comics. I DO feel he could've at least responded to me about the fees. It is what it is, I'm not complaining, was just sharing a similar story with the OP. 

Hi neighbor! 

Did you purchase this book from Danny Dupak/Hammer/ Perry Shroud/Kellyssuperheros ? 

Edited May 16, 2020 by BlowUpTheMoon

[JollyComics]

Matt Nelson once told me before his company merged with CGC.  He said, "Where did you get the book?"  I replied him, "eBay".  He gave me an astonishing impression, "eBay??"  That was 15 years ago.

[James J Johnson]

On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2020 at 11:45 AM, kypackman said:

This is my first post on the boards.   I recently bought 2 fairly expensive books on ebay from a well known comic dealer with a good reputation.  I have bought from him before with no issues.  I would like to continue business with him if possible.   I would like to think that he did not know of the color touch and trimming that was detected by CGC.   I requested a refund and upon receipt of the books back from me, I got my money back. He now has his books back in slabs that I paid for.  I asked for reimbursement of my CGC fees.    Because of the value of the books (over $5600) I had to submit them under the Express tier which was $90 each.   Shipping and insurance to CGC and back puts me out over $250.   Since the books were not disclosed as being restored or trimmed this is money I would not have spent if I had known the books had been doctored. I have now asked twice for the reimbursement and gotten no response.   I don't think I am being unreasonable but would like to know what others who have been around longer think about this.  Thanks.

If I might ask, does whether the seller know or didn't know the books were restored still cost you the same amount of loss because you bought the books with the understanding that they were free from restoration, misrepresented as such by the seller as things turned out? If so, I assume you would have passed if he had represented them correctly. If this is the case, and even to a greater degree that you are a regular customer, you should have been compensated for your CGC grading and expenses incurred for the submission of the misrepresented books that you would have passed on if the seller got it right.

I know this view goes against the general consensus of my fellow forum members, but right is right. At the very least, the seller who blew the call that resulted in an unnecessary submission that could have been avoided by correct representation of the books in the first place should have given the buyer a credit for the amount of unnecessary expense incurred. And he should have offered it without even being asked, once he was made aware of his blown call costing a regular buyer money. This is business 101 in any business. You cost a buyer money, you make it right, agreeable to both parties. Or you don't stay in business long.

[manofsteel]

37 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

If I might ask, does whether the seller know or didn't know the books were restored still cost you the same amount of loss because you bought the books with the understanding that they were free from restoration, misrepresented as such by the seller as things turned out? If so, I assume you would have passed if he had represented them correctly. If this is the case, and even to a greater degree that you are a regular customer, you should have been compensated for your CGC grading and expenses incurred for the submission of the misrepresented books that you would have passed on if the seller got it right.

I know this view goes against the general consensus of my fellow forum members, but right is right. At the very least, the seller who blew the call that resulted in an unnecessary submission that could have been avoided by correct representation of the books in the first place should have given the buyer a credit for the amount of unnecessary expense incurred. And he should have offered it without even being asked, once he was made aware of his blown call costing a regular buyer money. This is business 101 in any business. You cost a buyer money, you make it right, agreeable to both parties. Or you don't stay in business long.

Excellent post. 

[manofsteel]

1 hour ago, BlowUpTheMoon said:

Hi neighbor! 

Did you purchase this book from Danny Dupak/Hammer/ Perry Shroud/Kellyssuperheros ? 

Hello!

No, Chris something was his name. 

[James J Johnson]

8 minutes ago, manofsteel said:

Excellent post. 

We talk a lot about seller accountability and the lack of it making ebay horrific for buyers for the most part for many. And let's face facts, all the tales of woe are usually about raw books. Well. there's a 100 to 1 disparity of raw books far outnumbering slabbed books on ebay. Especially with most of the prime material going the way of Heritage, ComicLink, Comic Connect, there are two big auctions this month alone on Link and Connect. So what does that leave, aside from the painfully few really prime CGC graded books you see now on ebay? It leaves raw NM/UNread drivel that was cracked out of CGC 8.0 to 9.2 slabs for the most part, and sellers we expect to make mistakes on what's restored and what's not. That's nonsense. Anyone who sells, by definition, is a professional. They adopt that mantle by selling, and as such should be responsible for their product being fairly represented.

I'm not talking about guaranteeing a grade. Most sellers aren't skilled enough to be held to that standard. But I am talking about if the book is defective. And a restored book is definitely defective if represented as unrestored. In this circumstance, not only should a seller be embarrassed, but this embarrassment should be compounded by it happening to a regular who spends thousands. His buyer damaged for CGC costs because of his blunder. He should want to make this right, offer to make it right, and then once suggesting and effecting a remedy should follow up, "We square now? Did I address this to your liking?".

This is the type of seller accountability that should exist without question. Seller stands behind the product and covers damages caused by it. Very basic business principle.

[Artboy99]

1 hour ago, James J Johnson said:

If I might ask, does whether the seller know or didn't know the books were restored still cost you the same amount of loss because you bought the books with the understanding that they were free from restoration, misrepresented as such by the seller as things turned out? If so, I assume you would have passed if he had represented them correctly. If this is the case, and even to a greater degree that you are a regular customer, you should have been compensated for your CGC grading and expenses incurred for the submission of the misrepresented books that you would have passed on if the seller got it right.

I know this view goes against the general consensus of my fellow forum members, but right is right. At the very least, the seller who blew the call that resulted in an unnecessary submission that could have been avoided by correct representation of the books in the first place should have given the buyer a credit for the amount of unnecessary expense incurred. And he should have offered it without even being asked, once he was made aware of his blown call costing a regular buyer money. This is business 101 in any business. You cost a buyer money, you make it right, agreeable to both parties. Or you don't stay in business long.

I have personally experienced something similar to the OP when I purchased a book from a very respected seller who sent me an image of the book but I did not see the restoration ( color touch ) nor did I see the page quality ( brittle pages ) simply because page quality is not easily detectable in an image. Neither of these defects were disclosed by the seller: he just simply stated his price and I paid it assuming I could rely on the character of the well respected seller and CGC board member.

It is my fault that I did not carefully look the book over when I received it and also before sending the book to CGC for encapsulation, but it is because I relied on the established trust and reputation of the seller (who I will never buy anything from again). When I received the book back from CGC I was extremely disappointed by the grade, that it is in a purple label slab due to the rather obvious color touch it had once you looked for it and that it has brittle pages.

This wasn't an inexpensive book, I spent $1500 USD on it and owned it for 6 years before I submitted it for CGC grading.

My opinion is my situation is different because I owned the book for a very long time before I discovered its' unfortunate defects so I do not feel I can ask for a refund, or any compensation. I learned a very hard lesson from the experience and as a result I no longer trust anyone selling a raw book and I assume all raw books to be extremely risky and over graded so the seller can make a profit.

Begin rant

I bought quite a few golden age books over a 10 year period and many of them were raw. I feel I am a pretty good grader and think my close friends would support that claim, and I felt combining that with buying from well known sellers with decent reputations was a great way to obtain the books I was interested in. I purchased an entire Planet Comics run, and numerous classic cover horror books from the golden age. I was proud to own the books I did, until I began getting them cgc graded. The experiences I have had over just the last few years from getting those books CGC graded has honestly completely tarnished how I feel about collecting because my experiences have been from multiple sellers and they seem to all have the same thing in common: misrepresented a book so they could profit from it at the expense of a fellow comic collector. I just don't trust anyone selling raw books at all anymore especially online and to be blunt: neither should anyone else. I now automatically assume the seller that is selling that $1500 book raw is doing so to rip me off because they know it has issues and would CGC grade lower than what they are selling it for despite the visual appeal ( I do buy good visual appeal books ).

The experience was a factor in my decision to sell a lot of the books, I just couldn't look at them with the same joy I once had knowing I was completely ripped off.

To those sellers that have sold me books and your grade is pretty much bang on to what the CGC grade came back as or close to it ( 0.5 off ) I applaud you and wish there were more like you out there.

To the multitude of those who didn't disclose the color touch, the page quality, the giant blood stain inside the book, the missing pieces and chunks, the missing pages, the undisclosed detached cover or graded the book as a 6.5 that came back a 4.5 you should all be ashamed.

end rant.

 

[kypackman]

Thanks James, that was a great post.  It turns out that my seller did finally respond to me and his thoughts were very close to yours.   He apologized and refunded my CGC fees.   I guess he took that same Business 101 class

[James J Johnson]

4 minutes ago, kypackman said:

Thanks James, that was a great post.  It turns out that my seller did finally respond to me and his thoughts were very close to yours.   He apologized and refunded my CGC fees.   I guess he took that same Business 101 class

Good ending. Great to hear.  

And great to hear that he stepped up to defend the trust you placed in him as a seller to deliver as promised with a suitable and equitable remedy. That's all we ask our sellers to do. Stand just as tall to fairly adjust an issue as they stand when making the sale. And you know, it should be the norm for sellers to do that, not the exception.

[Artboy99]

31 minutes ago, kypackman said:

Thanks James, that was a great post.  It turns out that my seller did finally respond to me and his thoughts were very close to yours.   He apologized and refunded my CGC fees.   I guess he took that same Business 101 class

happy it worked out for you.

[Lazyboy]

16 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

If I might ask, does whether the seller know or didn't know the books were restored still cost you the same amount of loss because you bought the books with the understanding that they were free from restoration, misrepresented as such by the seller as things turned out? If so, I assume you would have passed if he had represented them correctly. If this is the case, and even to a greater degree that you are a regular customer, you should have been compensated for your CGC grading and expenses incurred for the submission of the misrepresented books that you would have passed on if the seller got it right.

I know this view goes against the general consensus of my fellow forum members, but right is right. At the very least, the seller who blew the call that resulted in an unnecessary submission that could have been avoided by correct representation of the books in the first place should have given the buyer a credit for the amount of unnecessary expense incurred. And he should have offered it without even being asked, once he was made aware of his blown call costing a regular buyer money. This is business 101 in any business. You cost a buyer money, you make it right, agreeable to both parties. Or you don't stay in business long.

It may be in the seller's best interest to compensate the buyer for their CGC costs, but it's still not their responsibility. Nobody is forcing anybody to submit anything to CGC. Also, CGC is not infallible and guarantees nothing when it comes to grades or restoration.

[shadroch]

What a strange hobby. It seems the only responsibility the buyer has is to fork over the money.  Why bother to learn to detect restoration or learn to grade. 

Has it really gotten to the point where anyone selling a non-CGC book should  be regarded as a thief trying to pawn off inferior products on unsuspecting neophytes?

Perhaps my 3,000  book inventory isn't slabbed  because I have better things to do with $100,000.

Last year I submitted 25 books to a consignment house and they recommended I send 4 in for slabbing. I agreed. The 21 books went on their site and sold in a few weeks, so I sent 25 more ,which also sold.  I submit another group and they tell me I should slab ten of them.  I decline because I want to sell them fairly quickly.  Three months after the rest of the books from the submission have been sold, they finally get the four books back and they graded out pretty  much what we'd expected from the start.  The prices didn't really justify the delay nor the added expenses.

 

[MustEatBrains]

This one is simple, at least to me, if I was the seller I'd eat everything, if I sold a book as unrestored and it was subbed and came back restored I would pay for the grading, the shipping and refund...
You only have one reputation.  Without knowing the terms of the sale or the fine print there can certainly be variables that the seller put out there to negate having to do this, just not worth fighting
something like this as a seller if you want to remain in good standing.. 
 

[oldrover]

11 minutes ago, MustEatBrains said:

This one is simple, at least to me, if I was the seller I'd eat everything, if I sold a book as unrestored and it was subbed and came back restored I would pay for the grading, the shipping and refund...
You only have one reputation.  Without knowing the terms of the sale or the fine print there can certainly be variables that the seller put out there to negate having to do this, just not worth fighting
something like this as a seller if you want to remain in good standing.. 
 

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I agree. Well said.

[James J Johnson]

2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

It may be in the seller's best interest to compensate the buyer for their CGC costs, but it's still not their responsibility. Nobody is forcing anybody to submit anything to CGC. Also, CGC is not infallible and guarantees nothing when it comes to grades or restoration.

The buyer has a reasonable expectation that the item he has purchased will perform as expected. That the item will be free from material defect as stated in the listing. The books were represented as unrestored. No restortation was disclosed. So the buyer had every reason to expect this as true and purchased an item that he would have passed on were he made aware beforehand that it was restored. This condition trumps any other consideration, fo instance, grade. That's a different issue altogether. I didn't read any language about the seller promising a CGC grade, so how it graded, 3.0, 5.0, 7.0, etc., is a moot point. The basic premise that the book was not restored, that condition, was not met due to seller negligence, and that negligence resulted in a financial loss because if the buyer knew it was restored, he wouldn't have bought it, submitted it, and incurred that cost. And isn't it a good thing that the buyer sought CGC's opinion so he could seek remedy from seller blunder now, instead of later? I think so. Seller owes him the fees he would not of incurred if the seller represented the books accurately in the first place. Buyer would have seen, "restored", or been told if he asked the seller, "is this restored", and would have been answered, "yes they are", and that would have been thar, no submissions no expense. All the events that caused loss occurred because the seller did not represent the books as restored; which they were.

Edited May 17, 2020 by James J Johnson

[Math Teacher]

On 5/16/2020 at 2:44 PM, Lest 2 Art said:

I think what he's saying is if you're going to use CGC as your resto detector instead of learning to do it yourself then that's the price of business.

There is obvious restoration, and then there is minuscule restoration. Finding color touch can be difficult, especially if you don't have a black light or some such. And don't even get me started on trimming. I have had more than one book that I posted in the PGM forum, and several people suggested the book had been trimmed. When the books came back from CGC, both had a blue label. I believe I have read on this board that even CGC has missed restoration.

I don't know anyone personally that I would consider an expert professional on detecting restoration. We are all just amateurs at this, but just at various levels of amateurship.

Do I buy books on Ebay? Yes, but only CGC or **** graded books. I started using Ebay shortly after it was established. I had some terrible experiences with sellers, such as receiving a book classified as NM with a missing page! I swore to never use Ebay again. Once CGC and **** graded books began being listed, I reconsidered my stance. I have since purchased some very nice books on Ebay, mostly for prices less than $1000. I don't think I would feel comfortable purchasing a $10000+ book from Ebay; YMMV. Could the CGC or **** case been tampered with? Yes, but I have read here on the forums that this is very unlikely.

Should we all be able to detect restoration? In a perfect world, yes. But shouldn't we also be able to trust a seller to be honest? In a perfect world, yes. We know we don't live in a perfect world, which is why I would never buy a raw book from an Ebay seller, unless I am just looking for a reader copy. Post after post on this forum only confirms my belief.

[Buzzetta]

I agree with Number 6 and Joe. 

When I bought a book from a dealer that came back as being restored, I did not ask nor even think about asking for the CGC slabbing fees to be reimbursed.  That was the cost of doing business on my end and I was grateful that the dealer took the book back.