CGC found restoration in 2 books i bought. Should the Comic shop refund my CGC fees in addition to my purchase price? 1 1

[Lazyboy]

3 hours ago, Joe Ankenbauer said:

But shouldn't we also be able to trust a seller to be honest?

So the implication here is that sellers are perfect and the only way they could sell something with an undisclosed defect is if they knew about it and chose to conceal it?

[James J Johnson]

2 hours ago, Buzzetta said:

and I was grateful that the dealer took the book back.

No. Sellers shouldn't be commended for not stealing or for fixing their mistake, or remedying damages incurred by their mistake. That should be expected. When you buy a book from Heritage, are you grateful that they sent it to you? Do you feel they should be commended for performing as they should be expected to? Heritage, and others, are professionals. They shouldn't have to be commended for being responsible. This should be expected of a professional without thanks, without surprise or commendation for them performing as expected.

Ebay sellers have lowered our expectations to such sub-par levels that we are compelled to be "grateful" and commend any seller that simply performs a basic function of giving you what you paid for. Like a computer store should be commended if you buy a computer, they load a box in your car, and that computer is in it when you get home and set it up! No. If a seller goes above and beyond, then commendation is in order. But not simply for performing like a seller. That's what they're supposed to do!

Edited May 18, 2020 by James J Johnson

[Buzzetta]

Just now, James J Johnson said:

No. Sellers shouldn't be commended for not stealing or for fixing their mistake, or remedying damages incurred by their mistake. That should be expected. When you buy a book from Heritage, are you grateful that they sent it to you? Do you feel they should be commended for performing as they should be expected to? Heritage, and others, are professionals. They shouldn't have to be commended for being responsible. This should be expected of a professional without thanks, without surprise or commendation for them performing as expected.

Ebay sellers have lowered our expectations to such sub-par levels that we are compelled to be "grateful" and commend any seller that simply performs a basic function of giving you what you paid for. Like PC should be commended if you buy a computer, they load a box in your car, and that computer is in it when you get home and set it up! No. If a seller goes above and beyond, then commendation is in order. But not simply for performing like a seller. That's what they're supposed to do!

Book was purchased at NYCC not over eBay. There was no receipt, there was no credit card payment. I deal with a handshake (now a elbow bump these days) and cash. 

I got into contact with him over 6 months after the fact once the book came back from CGC.   I believe I paid around $800 at the time... 

 

BTW Heritage also missed resto on a book I bought from them.  It was a mid grade cap that was advertised with Small Amount of CT but came back with that and being trimmed.  (Most likely micro trimmed).  

 

I bring that up to show to others (not you JJJ) that believe that everyone is perfect. 

[James J Johnson]

1 minute ago, Buzzetta said:

Book was purchased at NYCC not over eBay. There was no receipt, there was no credit card payment. I deal with a handshake (now a elbow bump these days) and cash. 

I got into contact with him over 6 months after the fact once the book came back from CGC.   I believe I paid around $800 at the time... 

 

BTW Heritage also missed resto on a book I bought from them.  It was a mid grade cap that was advertised with Small Amount of CT but came back with that and being trimmed.  (Most likely micro trimmed).  

 

I bring that up to show to others (not you JJJ) that believe that everyone is perfect. 

Nobody is perfect.... except old blue eyes!   

[James J Johnson]

9 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

I deal with a handshake (now a elbow bump these days) and cash. 

yes. That handshake meant something and should be enough for a responsible seller to remedy an issue, 6 minutes later or 6 months later. And since it did mean something to him, he did, paper trail or not.

[Math Teacher]

21 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

So the implication here is that sellers are perfect and the only way they could sell something with an undisclosed defect is if they knew about it and chose to conceal it?

No, not at all. I've freely admitted that I am no expert in detecting restoration. And I would believe the same is true for the majority of sellers on Ebay. Keep in mind, however, that the seller has the book in hand while the buyer has to sometimes look at small or blurry pictures.

Based on the numerous posts about Ebay on these forums, which do you consider to be more likely? The seller didn't realize that s/he was selling a defective book, or that the seller knew of the defect and chose not to mention it? Failing to disclose restoration is not as egregious as failing to mention a missing page, but it is still a misrepresentation, albeit an possible unintentional mistake (at least in regard to detecting restoration).

When there is an error regarding the description of the book, and said error would keep most normal collectors from purchasing the book, I feel that the seller should shoulder most of the responsibility. First, as I mentioned above, they have to book in hand, and are able to look more closely. Also, I think that if a seller sells a comic for $5600+, s/he should realize that said comic will probably be sent to CGC or ****. I certainly would expect that. Should the buyer be required to tell the seller that s/he is planning to have the book graded by CGC?

I bought a book from a fellow board member, and he said that he would buy the book back from me, including any grading cost, if restoration was detected. Luckily, the book got a blue label. Have I since bought additional books from this board member? Damn straight, I have. There's customer service, and there's CUSTOMER SERVICE.

I feel that businesses that are successful are those that go above and beyond to please their customers. That is why I choose to dine at locally-owned restaurants, rather than chain restaurants like Applebees or Olive Garden. The owners of locally-owned restaurants have most likely put their heart and soul into their business, and they realize how important customer loyalty is. The same is true of local comic book stores. If I go into a shop like the Android's Dungeon (the comic book store on the Simpsons), where I will be treated poorly, I most likely will never return. If I go into a shop to buy a book that is then determined to have problems, I would expect the owner to refund the purchase price immediately. To develop loyalty with a client, a shop owner could say, "Here's a $10 gift card for your trouble." I would return to that shop again and again, as the owner has demonstrated that my business is important to him.

Opinions are like noses; everyone has one. Notice how I cleaned this up to make it more family-friendly. My opinion is no more valid than your opinion. I just enjoy reading and participating in the back and forth of the discussion.

I have long ago determined that I will not buy any raw book from Ebay, and I wish the OP had followed in kind. The same is true of comic book dealers; I have sworn off purchasing from a very prominent dealer, because two books I purchased from him came back seriously overgraded.

OK, everyone. Go to your corner and come out typing. Just keep it above the belt.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Joe Ankenbauer

[waaaghboss]

See, the way I avoid getting restored books on ebay is to just troll the cheapies.   I feel safe buying say a $20 Jughead annual 6 without fear of resto, because who would even bother? 

[theCapraAegagrus]

I'll give a simple answer of: No.

Buying raw is another example of Risk vs Reward. If you want safety, it comes with the CGC label.

[spreads]

21 hours ago, Joe Ankenbauer said:

Based on the numerous posts about Ebay on these forums, which do you consider to be more likely? The seller didn't realize that s/he was selling a defective book, or that the seller knew of the defect and chose not to mention it? Failing to disclose restoration is not as egregious as failing to mention a missing page, but it is still a misrepresentation, albeit an possible unintentional mistake (at least in regard to detecting restoration).

When there is an error regarding the description of the book, and said error would keep most normal collectors from purchasing the book, I feel that the seller should shoulder most of the responsibility. First, as I mentioned above, they have to book in hand, and are able to look more closely. Also, I think that if a seller sells a comic for $5600+, s/he should realize that said comic will probably be sent to CGC or ****. I certainly would expect that. Should the buyer be required to tell the seller that s/he is planning to have the book graded by CGC?

 

A few things here, and I appreciate your stance on this subject....

1) Is there not a reasonable level of buyer beware when it comes to buying raw comics at that price point?  The consensus among most collectors is that you buy raw books you run the risk of exactly something like this happening.  You should be buying the book already graded.  I don't see this any different than buying a car from kijiji/craigslist at a discount versus going to a dealership.  That discount is the inherent risk.  

Now, if the OP wanted a raw book and only collects raw books, that's different.  But here, this is an example of one of two outcomes: a collector that wanted to get a CGC book for his collection, at a cheaper price than what graded books are going for (again, he needs to assume the risk); the second option is the collector wanted the book to grade and flip.  I have no issues with the latter, but I see a lot of this locally with a lot of known flippers.  If that's what they want to do, they again need to assume this risk.  You can't have your cake and eat it too!

Was the seller purposely being crooked?  Maybe, there's no way for me to tell, but not in every instance of something like this a result of a crooked seller - honest mistakes do happen.  

Lastly, what steps did the OP take when buying this book?  By comparison, two weeks ago I purchased a comic locally for $4500.  I spent a significant amount of time with the seller back and forth, and I finally made an informed decision that I would send this book to CGC and if it came back restored I was okay with that outcome.  Did the buyer clearly communicate these concerns before purchasing the book?

[Math Teacher]

20 hours ago, spreads said:

A few things here, and I appreciate your stance on this subject....

1) Is there not a reasonable level of buyer beware when it comes to buying raw comics at that price point?  The consensus among most collectors is that you buy raw books you run the risk of exactly something like this happening.  You should be buying the book already graded.  I don't see this any different than buying a car from kijiji/craigslist at a discount versus going to a dealership.  That discount is the inherent risk. 

Agreed. That's why I don't recommend buying raw copies on Ebay, unless they are reader copies. Raw comics are often (actually almost always) over-graded. Sellers who make the following comment in their listing, "I'm not a professional grader, so draw your own conclusion." are prone to missing things that could be wrong with a book, such as coupons missing, pages missing, and restoration. I have purchased some raw reader copies (BatB #1 - #24) on Ebay, but I would not buy a $100+ raw comic on Ebay. If I won't buy a $100 raw book, there's no way, on God's green earth, that I would purchase two raw books valued at $5600.

Now that I have thought about this, I'm trending toward the opinion that, if the seller didn't guarantee no restoration, the responsibility of the problem is shared between both the buyer and the seller. If I was spending that much money on a raw book, I would ask for a guarantee that if a book is determined to have restoration, the seller refunds my purchase price and 50% of the grading fee.

Should the OP had enough common sense to refrain from buying two very expensive raw books on Ebay? Most certainly. Could the seller done more to appease the customer? Yes, but paying for all the grading fees is probably too much. An offer of 50% off the OP's next purchase would probably appeased the OP. The OP may still feel s/he was cheated, but 50% off another purchase would lessen the sting.

Here are my simple rules about buying comics on Ebay.

1) NEVER buy a valuable raw book (reader copies are OK) on Ebay, unless the seller is a board member here or you have had satisfactory purchases from this seller. Before you click the button, don't think once or twice, think thrice!
2) If you're purchasing a professionally graded book, I would still think twice. If it's a book which you have searching for some time, I can understand your desire. But I would feel more comfortable buying from a fellow board member, such as @Ricksneatstuff, @jimjum12, or @Omaha-CGC-Comics, or buying from a reputable dealer, such as @AustinReece_GRRC or @MrBedrock.

This is just a suggestion. You can certainly do what you want. But, if you intend to ignore the  numerous posts about the drawbacks of purchasing raw comics from Ebay, that's on you. Remember - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

By the way, I absolutely HATE the phrase "I'm not a professional grader, ....." Dude, if you're not willing to become at least an average in ability grader, then stop selling comic books.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Joe Ankenbauer

[spreads]

3 hours ago, Joe Ankenbauer said:

 

By the way, I absolutely HATE the phrase "I'm not a professional grader, ....." Dude, if you're not willing to become at least an average in ability grader, then stop selling comic books.

I couldn't agree more.  FineCollector and I were talking about this tonight about a local seller that doesn't put grades on his ebay listing.  Doesn't even assign a grade!  He'll grade when he wants to buy, but doesn't have the confidence when he wants to sell?   

Most of the time though those that use that line 'not a professional grader' is just someone admitting to being lazy.  You don't need to win a F1 race to know the difference between a green and red stoplight. 

[Tony S]

On 5/17/2020 at 5:07 PM, Buzzetta said:

I agree with Number 6 and Joe. 

When I bought a book from a dealer that came back as being restored, I did not ask nor even think about asking for the CGC slabbing fees to be reimbursed.  That was the cost of doing business on my end and I was grateful that the dealer took the book back.

And I agree with Buzz

Ya know, I've followed this thread for a time and really shouldn't bother responding.  It's been debated too many times. Those that believe sellers should cover grading fees are never changing their minds. Those that think it's unreasonable for buyers to expect such are never changing their minds. 

To me it's pretty simple and straight forward. If you only want a blue label, CGC graded book than buy just that and not something else. 90%  bought raw hoping to send it to to CGC and get/end up with a CGC blue label - for less money.  That's called gambling. You are not guaranteed to win when gambling.  

If people want to buy raw and end up with blue label CGC books - then the BUYER should get better at spotting restoration. Then the BUYER could catch restored books BEFORE spending money sending them in.  

There are sellers on eBay selling books they know have restoration  - and are not disclosing it.  Some are notorious and get mentioned here.  Most sellers just are not much better at detecting restoration than most buyers. Professional color touch and trimming are really hard to spot. Except for experts. That's why CGC employs experts in restoration.  

If you buy raw, expecting a refund of what you paid plus shipping is reasonable if you are unhappy with the book (say it is restored). What YOU did with the book after you bought it is on you. As I said earlier, you could take responsibility and learn to detect restoration. Then when you get a restored book you could do your return before YOU decide to send it in for grading. 

Think about this. You drive 20 miles round trip to buy a closeout laptop  - their last one - at Walmart. You also ordered a custom gaming laptop skin from a computer store. You get home, enjoy for a few days and the laptop dies.  You take it back to Walmart. Do you expect Walmart to refund your gas money? Do you expect Walmart to pay for the laptop skin you bought but will now never be able to use?  Well - you can expect if you want. But you might as well buy you a snickers bar on your way out - because that and a refund for the price you paid for the laptop is all you are getting from Walmart. 

Sellers only owe you the amount you paid them. Is that really controversial? 


 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Tony S

[joeypost]

Only caveat around this that I can see is IF dealer/seller guarantees the books are restoration free. That's why it pays to ask question up front, and get your books graded in a timely manner. 

[thehumantorch]

On 5/16/2020 at 9:15 PM, Artboy99 said:

I have personally experienced something similar to the OP when I purchased a book from a very respected seller who sent me an image of the book but I did not see the restoration ( color touch ) nor did I see the page quality ( brittle pages ) simply because page quality is not easily detectable in an image. Neither of these defects were disclosed by the seller: he just simply stated his price and I paid it assuming I could rely on the character of the well respected seller and CGC board member.

It is my fault that I did not carefully look the book over when I received it and also before sending the book to CGC for encapsulation, but it is because I relied on the established trust and reputation of the seller (who I will never buy anything from again). When I received the book back from CGC I was extremely disappointed by the grade, that it is in a purple label slab due to the rather obvious color touch it had once you looked for it and that it has brittle pages.

This wasn't an inexpensive book, I spent $1500 USD on it and owned it for 6 years before I submitted it for CGC grading.

My opinion is my situation is different because I owned the book for a very long time before I discovered its' unfortunate defects so I do not feel I can ask for a refund, or any compensation. I learned a very hard lesson from the experience and as a result I no longer trust anyone selling a raw book and I assume all raw books to be extremely risky and over graded so the seller can make a profit.

Begin rant

I bought quite a few golden age books over a 10 year period and many of them were raw. I feel I am a pretty good grader and think my close friends would support that claim, and I felt combining that with buying from well known sellers with decent reputations was a great way to obtain the books I was interested in. I purchased an entire Planet Comics run, and numerous classic cover horror books from the golden age. I was proud to own the books I did, until I began getting them cgc graded. The experiences I have had over just the last few years from getting those books CGC graded has honestly completely tarnished how I feel about collecting because my experiences have been from multiple sellers and they seem to all have the same thing in common: misrepresented a book so they could profit from it at the expense of a fellow comic collector. I just don't trust anyone selling raw books at all anymore especially online and to be blunt: neither should anyone else. I now automatically assume the seller that is selling that $1500 book raw is doing so to rip me off because they know it has issues and would CGC grade lower than what they are selling it for despite the visual appeal ( I do buy good visual appeal books ).

The experience was a factor in my decision to sell a lot of the books, I just couldn't look at them with the same joy I once had knowing I was completely ripped off.

To those sellers that have sold me books and your grade is pretty much bang on to what the CGC grade came back as or close to it ( 0.5 off ) I applaud you and wish there were more like you out there.

To the multitude of those who didn't disclose the color touch, the page quality, the giant blood stain inside the book, the missing pieces and chunks, the missing pages, the undisclosed detached cover or graded the book as a 6.5 that came back a 4.5 you should all be ashamed.

end rant.

 

I agree Karl.  Raw books may be cheaper but there's a lot of disappointment in them there hills.

[kimik]

On 5/17/2020 at 11:43 AM, shadroch said:

Has it really gotten to the point where anyone selling a non-CGC book should  be regarded as a thief trying to pawn off inferior products on unsuspecting neophytes?

It has. There are a number of "reputable dealers" I will not buy Golden Age or even early Silver Age from raw due to undisclosed resto, undisclosed tanning, brittle pages, adjusted scans, overgrading, etc. We have discussed some of them here ad nauseum in the past, and many have continued to loosen their grading over time to try to squeeze out as much as possible that is not worth looking at their tables/websites at shows.

As far as part time collectors/sellers, go to a show and look at the grades and prices that most of them have on their books. They tend to be one to two grades too high (some way worse), priced above GPA, and most do not know how to detect resto or are trying to pass restored books off as unrestored (e.g. the scumbag seller from Vancouver selling undisclosed restored GA and early SA books at the Calgary Expo a couple of years ago). I am fine with that since it drives buyers to our tables first to spend/put purchases on hold, and then they come back shortly after to add more to their piles. However, I do know collectors my age (mid 40s) that used to spend several $10Ks/yr who have stopped buying altogether due to getting burned by said sellers, which is not a good thing for the hobby.

Edited May 20, 2020 by kimik

[shadroch]

54 minutes ago, kimik said:

It has. There are a number of "reputable dealers" I will not buy Golden Age or even early Silver Age from raw due to undisclosed resto, undisclosed tanning, brittle pages, adjusted scans, overgrading, etc. We have discussed some of them here ad nauseum in the past, and many have continued to loosen their grading over time to try to squeeze out as much as possible that is not worth looking at their tables/websites at shows.

As far as part time collectors/sellers, go to a show and look at the grades and prices that most of them have on their books. They tend to be one to two grades too high (some way worse), priced above GPA, and most do not know how to detect resto or are trying to pass restored books off as unrestored (e.g. the scumbag seller from Vancouver selling undisclosed restored GA and early SA books at the Calgary Expo a couple of years ago). I am fine with that since it drives buyers to our tables first to spend/put purchases on hold, and then they come back shortly after to add more to their piles. However, I do know collectors my age (mid 40s) that used to spend several $10Ks/yr who have stopped buying altogether due to getting burned by said sellers, which is not a good thing for the hobby.

So you sell nothing but slabbed books? 

[William-James88]

On 5/13/2020 at 2:45 PM, kypackman said:

This is my first post on the boards.   I recently bought 2 fairly expensive books on ebay from a well known comic dealer with a good reputation.  I have bought from him before with no issues.  I would like to continue business with him if possible.   I would like to think that he did not know of the color touch and trimming that was detected by CGC.   I requested a refund and upon receipt of the books back from me, I got my money back. He now has his books back in slabs that I paid for.  I asked for reimbursement of my CGC fees.    Because of the value of the books (over $5600) I had to submit them under the Express tier which was $90 each.   Shipping and insurance to CGC and back puts me out over $250.   Since the books were not disclosed as being restored or trimmed this is money I would not have spent if I had known the books had been doctored. I have now asked twice for the reimbursement and gotten no response.   I don't think I am being unreasonable but would like to know what others who have been around longer think about this.  Thanks.

Sadly, the seller only needs to refund you what you gave them. You are not unreasonable but nether are they for not wanting to spend more than they owe you. It would be nice if they do, but you can't expect/demand it. They too have now lost money on these books (they wont be able to sell them for what they thought they would). Also, there are services that look for restoration before you grade the book, so that could have been used instead. 

Next time before you send a book in, we do have a thread for questons about restoration. You could post pics there and we could let you know what we think, free of charge

And I am glad things worked out for you!

Edited May 20, 2020 by William-James88

[William-James88]

2 hours ago, thehumantorch said:

I agree Karl.  Raw books may be cheaper but there's a lot of disappointment in them there hills.

The crazy thing is that's not even true anymore. At least not a hard set rule as indicated. There are a bunch of mid grade keys that sell better when raw. The 5.0 range is the sweet spot since some imperfections could be pressed, turning it into a 7.0 or something of the sort and it being worth a lot more (seeing that big time with Hawkman 4 at the moment). While a 5.0 already in a slab, the grade is set in stone for the most part, unless you want to play the crack/press/reslab game which is always a gamble.

And when it comes to the Fawcett Comics I collect, there seems to be no premium for slabbed books for the most part  (the few keys are usually slabbed anyway so there's not much to compare).

[William-James88]

On 5/16/2020 at 3:23 PM, manofsteel said:

The book was advertised as unrestored, and it turned out to be restored. Had I not chosen to sub the book, I never would've known till X amount of years later when I went to sell it. Where I would've taken a huge loss on it. But that's ok with you? Ooooook, pal. 

Sounds like Schrodinger's comic.

[kimik]

11 minutes ago, William-James88 said:

The crazy thing is that's not even true anymore. At least not a hard set rule as indicated. There are a bunch of mid grade keys that sell better when raw. The 5.0 range is the sweet spot since some imperfections could be pressed, turning it into a 7.0 or something of the sort and it being worth a lot more (seeing that big time with Hawkman 4 at the moment). While a 5.0 already in a slab, the grade is set in stone for the most part, unless you want to play the crack/press/reslab game which is always a gamble.

And when it comes to the Fawcett Comics I collect, there seems to be no premium for slabbed books for the most part  (the few keys are usually slabbed anyway so there's not much to compare).

He was referring to disappointment when buying raw. The number of people worth buying from is less and less each year as more big dealers and sellers stretch the grades as much as possible.

Edited May 20, 2020 by kimik