9.9s, life, and a couple Qs 3 3

[Poekaymon]

I've been pretty curious about 9.9s and 10s since getting back into this.  People seem to want anywhere from 5 to 30x 9.8 value for them.  Almost immediately after I started last year, a Killing Joke CGC 9.9 went up on the bay.  I bid $600 on it--I figured 2-3x or so 9.8 value was fair.  As I recall it closed at closer to 1k and I was absolutely floored.  Especially on that book which has like 50 9.9s.  Even still, I kind of yearned for that shiny 9.9, and I resolved to be a bit more aggressive if some of my favorites popped up 9.9 or 10 in the future.

Fast forward a week ago when a 1988 Wolverine 9.9 popped up on a certain auction site.  I figured I'd take a shot, but when I looked closely at the picture, it did not seem perfect to me, particularly, the upper left corner.  Now maybe it's just dust or something but it sure looks a lot like various 9.8s I have with mildly blunted or "fuzzy" corners.  In particular, it looks like one that I shipped to someone which definitely had razor sharp, pin perfect corners, but immediately upon receiving it he asked for a refund and sent me back a picture of the same book with some corner blunting/tearing that most likely happened in shipping somehow.  The case was perfectly fine, and I took it back. 

So I wanted to look into this Wolv 9.9 and did a little digging for history on this particular copy and found out that it used to belong to someone on these boards, and has traded hands a couple times since then.  So I looked at the original picture of it posted by the person who got it slabbed, and sure enough, it did not have any corner issues--at least, not visible (maybe it did but it was masked well, like it was on the edge, and after being shipped however many times since then, it came a little loose).

I've been accused on these boards already of being too picky when it comes to 9.8s.  (Let's skip the "9.8s are all equal" debate for the moment.)  But if you are paying 10x or more over 9.8 prices or a 9.9, it's justified in that case isn't it?  I think there shouldn't be anything whatsoever visible to the naked eye.  I dunno--you guys tell me.  So here's a comparison pic of the same book, cropped to the corner.  The pic on the left is the original posted to these boards in 2016 after the person got it back from CGC (they then sold it a couple years later).  The pic on the right is the one posted by the auction site for the current auction. 

 

1.  Let's assume that actually is some issue with the book and not a piece of dust or something external to the book itself.  Is it still a 9.9?

2.  And here's a hypothetical.  Unrelated to this auction, let's say there was a 9.9 which had sustained post-grading damage such that it could obviously no longer get even a 9.8.  Would you rather have A) that 9.9 in name (but at best a 9.6 in actuality) or B) a 9.8 of the same book?

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

 

Quote

 

1.  Let's assume that actually is some issue with the book and not a piece of dust or something external to the book itself.  Is it still a 9.9?

2.  And here's a hypothetical.  Unrelated to this auction, let's say there was a 9.9 which had sustained post-grading damage such that it could obviously no longer get even a 9.8.  Would you rather have A) that 9.9 in name (but at best a 9.6 in actuality) or B) a 9.8 of the same book?

 

1. I would say asking someone to spot the difference between 9.8 and 9.9 is difficult 

2. Especially difficult to come to some satisfying answer....

3. It's a 9.9, based on the pics itself, the dark backdrop is going to show any white paper in a scan, if it's the particles you mean it'll be dust either on the scanner, in the air between the enclave of the slab and scanner, on the outside of the slab or inner well. Not on the book.

If it was on the inside of the inner well, I dont know that dust scratches or such, i will leave that up to you

the white I'm more concerned about, but even the seam of the well on the scan on the right looks white or blemished, and compared to cgc going over a book with magnification with a restoration check or other, I'm sure it would get to the heart of the matter between a 9.9 better than a scan.

4. I honestly dont think cgc takes a 9.9 choice lightly, but it's in the eye of the beholder as I recall a IH 181, and up for opinion 

Edited May 17, 2020 by ADAMANTIUM

[Poekaymon]

36 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

 

1. I would say asking someone to spot the difference between 9.8 and 9.9 is difficult 

2. Especially difficult to come to some satisfying answer....

3. It's a 9.9, based on the pics itself, the dark backdrop is going to show any white paper in a scan, if it's the particles you mean it'll be dust either on the scanner, in the air between the enclave of the slab and scanner, on the outside of the slab or inner well. Not on the book.

If it was on the inside of the inner well, I dont know that dust scratches or such, i will leave that up to you

the white I'm more concerned about, but even the seam of the well on the scan on the right looks white or blemished, and compared to cgc going over a book with magnification with a restoration check or other, I'm sure it would get to the heart of the matter between a 9.9 better than a scan.

4. I honestly dont think cgc takes a 9.9 choice lightly, but it's in the eye of the beholder as I recall a IH 181, and up for opinion 

To be clear, I was never questioning CGC or arguing that it wasn't originally a 9.9--just questioning whether it still is.  I allow that the dark background on the scan will show more dust, and it could just be dust with some really unlucky placement, as I mentioned.  If so, they should probably do a new scan.  Ah well, think I'll pass.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Poekaymon

[newshane]

5 hours ago, Poekaymon said:

But if you are paying 10x or more over 9.8 prices or a 9.9, it's justified in that case isn't it?  I think there shouldn't be anything whatsoever visible to the naked eye.  I dunno--you guys tell me. 

 

What do you think a 10.0 is for? 

[Poekaymon]

1 hour ago, newshane said:

What do you think a 10.0 is for? 

I knew that was coming.

Edit: Just in case you're not trolling, 9.8 = imperfections I can see, 9.9 = imperfections I can't see, 10.0 = no imperfections. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Poekaymon

[MustEatBrains]

CGC says it’s a 9.9 so it must be right?  For the love of god always buy the book and not the grade on the label.  Why people waste money on 9.9s and 10s is beyond me and Ive had my fair share of them pass through my hands and can tell you 100% the difference in visual quality would never justify the dollars you would spend on a 9.9 vs a 9.8 and is just not ever worth it IMO.  But some people gotta chase after the best, even if it’s not the best. To each their own.

[alexgross.com]

these cases definitely do not perfectly hold the book 'as is' indefinitely. i've seen a number of high grade books with corner issues that could not have been present when initially graded.  as you said, the brutality of shipping a book can sometimes cause some corner damage. a 9.9 should not have any visible defects. if it did, i would not buy it. i probably would only buy one in person at those relics of time past called conventions. getting one online again opens the door to some wear from shipping. 

[Poekaymon]

6 minutes ago, MustEatBrains said:

CGC says it’s a 9.9 so it must be right?  For the love of god always buy the book and not the grade on the label.  Why people waste money on 9.9s and 10s is beyond me and Ive had my fair share of them pass through my hands and can tell you 100% the difference in visual quality would never justify the dollars you would spend on a 9.9 vs a 9.8 and is just not ever worth it IMO.  But some people gotta chase after the best, even if it’s not the best. To each their own.

That's the validation I was looking for.

[newshane]

16 minutes ago, Poekaymon said:

I knew that was coming.

Edit: Just in case you're not trolling, 9.8 = imperfections I can see, 9.9 = imperfections I can't see, 10.0 = no imperfections. 

I'm not trolling. 

And just because you can't see an imperfection doesn't mean that I can't see it. Your definition makes no logical sense at all from an objective standpoint. 

 

[newshane]

Here are the CGC's own published guidelines. 9.9s are ALMOST perfect. They aren't perfect. 

CGC

 

[Poekaymon]

7 minutes ago, newshane said:

I'm not trolling. 

And just because you can't see an imperfection doesn't mean that I can't see it. Your definition makes no logical sense at all from an objective standpoint. 

 

Well, that's because it's all pretty subjective.  

3 minutes ago, newshane said:

Here are the CGC's own published guidelines. 9.9s are ALMOST perfect. They aren't perfect. 

CGC

 

Not exactly.  It's perfect in terms of handling defects and imperfect in terms of manufacturing defects.  The subject book is no longer a 9.9 under that definition (as per my assumptions).  

[ADAMANTIUM]

8 minutes ago, Poekaymon said:

Well, that's because it's all pretty subjective.  

Not exactly.  It's perfect in terms of handling defects and imperfect in terms of manufacturing defects.  The subject book is no longer a 9.9 under that definition (as per my assumptions).  

Maybe I missed it, is it the corner you're speaking of with the whit and black background? That makes the corner look blown? 

Not trolling just thought I'd clarify my previous post

I don't think I'm seeing a "flaw"

And I didn't mean to insinuate to put words in your mouth, it's a friendly thread

 

[Poekaymon]

Just now, ADAMANTIUM said:

Maybe I missed it, is it the corner you're speaking of with the whit and black background? That makes the corner look blown? 

Not trolling just thought I'd clarify my previous post

I don't think I'm seeing a "flaw"

And I didn't mean to insinuate to put words in your mouth, it's a friendly thread

 

Well part of the post was to see if it even was a flaw so you're well within your rights.  Pic on left (from 2016) = upper left corner : black and sharp.  Pic on right (from 2020) = upper left corner, fuzzy and white.

[ADAMANTIUM]

1 minute ago, Poekaymon said:

Well part of the post was to see if it even was a flaw so you're well within your rights.  Pic on left (from 2016) = upper left corner : black and sharp.  Pic on right (from 2020) = upper left corner, fuzzy and white.

Seems I remember the same kind of issue with an IH 181... 9.9

Give this a read and see if it parallels idk, but you're right and completely within your rights as well, buy the book not the grade....

I recently bought an ASM 298 that was signed by McFarlane, it definitely has a color breaking spine tick and a few other issues. But I just assume it was pressed to 9.8. Due to the time of signature, it probably happened during this past in house cgc signing.

I think you were well within you're rights discussing the 9.8 last time (sorry sore subject maybe) but more than likely people would only take issue with a "return" when still "learning what a 9.8 consists of" I don't remember if that was you and no reason to rehash, bygones and all, you're learning and I am too but before you or anyone else makes a purchase this time

And that should be to our credit! 

[Poekaymon]

4 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Seems I remember the same kind of issue with an IH 181... 9.9

Give this a read and see if it parallels idk, but you're right and completely within your rights as well, buy the book not the grade....

I recently bought an ASM 298 that was signed by McFarlane, it definitely has a color breaking spine tick and a few other issues. But I just assume it was pressed to 9.8. Due to the time of signature, it probably happened during this past in house cgc signing.

I think you were well within you're rights discussing the 9.8 last time (sorry sore subject maybe) but more than likely people would only take issue with a "return" when still "learning what a 9.8 consists of" I don't remember if that was you and no reason to rehash, bygones and all, you're learning and I am too but before you or anyone else makes a purchase this time

And that should be to our credit! 

Interesting read.  That 9.9 181 is... not great.

[oldmilwaukee6er]

One thing that is lost but hinted at here is that it is all well and good to earn / buy a 9.9 or 10 slab, but yet another thing entirely to keep / store / sell / ship a 9.9 - 10. That sh *t gets in your head. 

[ivegotneatstuff]

9 hours ago, Poekaymon said:

I knew that was coming.

Edit: Just in case you're not trolling, 9.8 = imperfections I can see, 9.9 = imperfections I can't see, 10.0 = no imperfections. 

I think 9.9s are a perfect book - yet with a small printing defect. The “puff” in the top left corner could very well be a printing defect (the only “defect“ allowed  in a 9.9 is a printing defect - a 9.8 by definition must have a flaw created either after the printing process .. or a printing defect so large it is counted as a flaw) That small blemish in the top left corner could be something that is there in addition to the original book, perhaps due to the cutting / trimming process during printing and it was just cut slightly wrong It is something that is there in addition to the entire original comic - but it’s just a hunch.  If I look really really closely at the image of the book from 2016 I do see a very slight blurry bulge in that corner.

I think we’ve all seen some books that have extra paper which wasn’t trimmed properly  - usually it’s on the interior pages
 

anyway just a thought 

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by ivegotneatstuff

[Hollywood1892]

That corner doesn't look horrible 

I've seen corners on 9.8s you could drift a car around

[MGsimba77]

The picture on the right is more clear than the left. Looks like it's a Clink scan on the right. The same tiny little  "defect" if you even wanna call it that could be present on the left but not clearly visible. It could of even happened during production. Production defects are not counted against the book. Remember a 9.9 is not a 10 so I wouldn't let that be deal breaker by any stretch. 

I've gotten plenty of high grade books where I spotted something in hand that didn't show in a high quality scan 

[Poekaymon]

1 hour ago, Hollywood1892 said:

That corner doesn't look horrible 

I've seen corners on 9.8s you could drift a car around

Oh, I agree it's not "horrible."  But I think the bar for 9.9's should be a bit higher than "not horrible" when they go for 10-20x 9.8 value.  Here's another 9.9 the same auction house has up right now.

 

Not going to bother zooming in on each corner, but they are sharp.  These are the corners I demand in my 9.9s.