500Club Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 1 minute ago, kav said: you cannot say things like 'opinions are not always correct'. You have to understand the meaning of the word 'opinion'. And, you are right, as long as it’s truly an opinion being voiced. If you tell me your opinion is that Rob Liefeld draws anatomy well, I’m going to tell you your ‘opinion’ is just flat out wrong. See: anti vaxxers kav 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted May 30, 2020 Author Share Posted May 30, 2020 Just now, 500Club said: And, you are right, as long as it’s truly an opinion being voiced. If you tell me your opinion is that Rob Liefeld draws anatomy well, I’m going to tell you your ‘opinion’ is just flat out wrong. See: anti vaxxers saying liefeld draws anatomy well would be a statement of fact-because you can compare his drawings with actual human anatomy. As long as by 'well' you meant 'accurate'. 1950's war comics and FoggyNelson 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500Club Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, kav said: 6 minutes ago, 500Club said: And, you are right, as long as it’s truly an opinion being voiced. If you tell me your opinion is that Rob Liefeld draws anatomy well, I’m going to tell you your ‘opinion’ is just flat out wrong. See: anti vaxxers saying liefeld draws anatomy well would be a statement of fact-because you can compare his drawings with actual human anatomy. As long as by 'well' you meant 'accurate'. LOL... this is where we kav 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcjames Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 On 5/28/2020 at 1:16 PM, kav said: I'm arguing with someone on face book who claims "Many John Byrne comics are undervalued. Change my mind. He’s his generation’s Neal Adams. I just think Byrne goes down as his era’s greatest." I stated "the problem with byrne is he can only draw one male face and one female face. he just changes hair. many comic artists are guilty of this but byrne takes it to whole new level. Adams drew different faces. he could also draw children. Byrne's children look like adult midgets. Perez is the greatest artist of that era. orig art for byrne can be found cheap. perez is pricey. that says it all. So whats the consensus-who will go down as the better artist of that era? Like Kirby. Always the same face. btw, Perez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted May 30, 2020 Author Share Posted May 30, 2020 3 minutes ago, jcjames said: Like Kirby. Always the same face. btw, Perez. Most comic artists are guilty of this to some degree-even Kneel Atoms and Perez. In my opinion Byrne is even more formulaic than most. Sean Phillips is the exception-he draws different faces! FoggyNelson and 1950's war comics 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan510 Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 8 hours ago, 500Club said: Almost. In the case of comic book art, there are a few artistic concepts that verge on fact. Construction and use of two point perspective, three point perspective and vanishing points tend to be pretty concrete and geometrical, as does human anatomy. In fact, as a Byrne voter, I do agree that his rendering of female faces is limited, and based on evidence, this is more than just opinion. Also, there's been no discussion about using 'facts' or 'models' to prove one artist is better than another. This really only came up with the suggestion that Byrne has an issue with perspective. You're debating with a guy who says art is opinion, but started a thread with the question about who is better...yet saying it can't be quantified. Not to mention that a lot of his "opinions" can be proven wrong. For example, perspective is either correct or it isn't, there is no "feeling" about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted May 30, 2020 Author Share Posted May 30, 2020 1 minute ago, Logan510 said: You're debating with a guy who says art is opinion, but started a thread with the question about who is better...yet saying it can't be quantified. Not to mention that a lot of his "opinions" can be proven wrong. For example, perspective is either correct or it isn't, there is no "feeling" about it. Settle down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan510 Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 Yep, all the same. Juno Beach 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Crist Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 I did like me some Perez AVENGERS circa 1976-7. That crossover with SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP was my gateway to Marvel. I prefer Byrne's writing to his art. kav 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted May 30, 2020 Author Share Posted May 30, 2020 1 minute ago, Marshall Crist said: I did like me some Perez AVENGERS circa 1976-7. That crossover with SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP was my gateway to Marvel. I prefer Byrne's writing to his art. I was a big avengers fan and when Perez did the first issue it was fairly crude but I fell in love with it immediately. Every single issue he leapt forward in skill. He is one of the rare comics artists that just got better and better the older he got. JJ-4 and 1950's war comics 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted May 30, 2020 Author Share Posted May 30, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Logan510 said: Yep, all the same. I dont think a character sheet specifically designed to show how to draw racial differences qualifies as he drew different faces in his books. Plus as 'racial differences' they are pretty weak attempts. What 'race' is the woman lower left supposed to be, for one example? Edited May 30, 2020 by kav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan510 Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 I get it, all his faces look the same...except when they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted May 30, 2020 Author Share Posted May 30, 2020 Just now, Logan510 said: I get it, all his faces look the same...except when they don't. Now if he could draw a bunch of say white males with different faces. like Sean Phillips. now that would qualify. JJ-4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan510 Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted May 30, 2020 Author Share Posted May 30, 2020 Most of his male heroes have the same face as reed richards, and female heroines have the same face as sue storm. You either see it or ya dont I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B2D327 Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 I love Perez’ art but it’s never “wowed” me. Byrne on the other hand... my vote is Byrne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexgross.com Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 i was the biggest byrne fan on earth when he did xmen with terry austin. he was my god. then he started inking himself on ff and the magic just evaporated for me. it probably didnt help that the ff are three boring looking white people plus the thing, compared to the very diverse and cool looking group of characters in the xmen. i stuck with him on alpha flight because i loved vindicator's costume. of course he killed him off promptly. but by then i found the 'looser' byrne kind of boring. at the same time i read the teen titans. though their stories were not quite as compelling as the claremont xmen stuff, the art was amazing. when marvel and dc did the xmen/titans crossover book i think i had a religious experience. anyway, it didnt take much for me as a 14 year old to realize how repetitive byrne's work really was, and that terry austin's inking was half the magic. though i never followed perez much either after that period, i do think he's a more well rounded artist. his style is less 'stylized' perhaps. byrne may not really draw the same face over and over, but it always felt like that to me. not with perez. and i know we can say this about kirby, romita, buscema too. all i know is that i got over byrne a long time ago and many others seem to have too. he's still a great and important artist. let's add frank miller to the comversation to liven it up even more! JJ-4, kav and Point Five 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telerites Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 5 hours ago, www.alexgross.com said: then he started inking himself on ff I agree. I thought he was using a sharpie. alexgross.com 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Point Five Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 Perez by a mile! JJ-4, kav and FoggyNelson 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoggyNelson Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 Perez waaaay better‼️‼️😷😷 kav, Point Five and JJ-4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...