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The value of First appearances had they appeared in other runs
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39 posts in this topic

I've wondered about this from the POV of staying power of the character... Would the characters themselves had had more of effect across the universe if they began life in a more popular or better suited book?

I'm a DD collector, so Imma stick with that title...

You've got DD131 and 168 as the pretty clear winners of the first appearance game from the entire DD run, I think.

What's next?  #111?  Would Silver Samurai have had more staying power and been perceived as a better villain had he started off in an X-Men book?

What about #197?  Lady Deathstrike had a brief moment in the sun, but would it have lasted longer if she was more directly associated with Wolverine?

Purple Man makes for a great villain when handled correctly (thank you, Netflix), but he's never really mattered outside of Daredevil, so #4 sits fairly low.

Gladiator is one of my favorite characters and has, I think, far more potential than Scorpion or Rhino, but neither Melvin nor #18 get off the bench nearly as much as ASM41 puts The Rhino into the game.

What happens if we swap those two characters?

Edited by Schmakt
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6 hours ago, Schmakt said:

I've wondered about this from the POV of staying power of the character... Would the characters themselves had had more of effect across the universe if they began life in a more popular or better suited book?

I'm a DD collector, so Imma stick with that title...

You've got DD131 and 168 as the pretty clear winners of the first appearance game from the entire DD run, I think.

What's next?  #111?  Would Silver Samurai have had more staying power and been perceived as a better villain had he started off in an X-Men book?

What about #197?  Lady Deathstrike had a brief moment in the sun, but would it have lasted longer if she was more directly associated with Wolverine?

Mr. Fear makes for a great villain when handled correctly (thank you, Netflix), but he's never really mattered outside of Daredevil, so #4 sits fairly low.

Gladiator is one of my favorite characters and has, I think, far more potential than Scorpion or Rhino, but neither Melvin nor #18 get off the bench nearly as much as ASM41 puts The Rhino into the game.

What happens if we swap those two characters?

Exactly

Daredevil himself is a pretty wicked character utilizing his disabilities and turning them into strengths and yet DD 1 sits at the low end in terms of prices for Grails (if you call certain books that) Its not much more then a ASM 50 in 9.8, but what if he had first appeared in a ASM book before getting his own title?

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34 minutes ago, Hollywood1892 said:

Exactly

Daredevil himself is a pretty wicked character utilizing his disabilities and turning them into strengths and yet DD 1 sits at the low end in terms of prices for Grails (if you call certain books that) Its not much more then a ASM 50 in 9.8, but what if he had first appeared in a ASM book before getting his own title?

Now that's interesting...

What If ASM16 pre-dated DD1?

Then we're in a SS1 v FF48 situation.

What If SS1 pre-dated FF48?

Surfer showing up in FF was a marriage made in heaven, but I wonder what would happen if SS1 was first?  Or if they came out in the same month so that we're looking at something akin to ASM252 v SW8. (albeit with much greater implications)

 

EDIT: Note a lot of data, obviously, but a 9.8 ASM16 has 50% potential of a 9.6 DD1... that just seems crazy to me.  But, again, I'm biased toward the lawyer. :)

Edited by Schmakt
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1 minute ago, Schmakt said:

Now that's interesting...

What If ASM16 pre-dated DD1?

Then we're in a SS1 v FF48 situation.

What If SS1 pre-dated FF48?

Surfer showing up in FF was a marriage made in heaven, but I wonder what would happen if SS1 was first?  Or if they came out in the same month so that we're looking at something akin to ASM252 v SW8. (albeit with much greater implications)

Yep

The subject really got me thinking when it came to IM 55 

There are so many heroes and villains whose first appearances are underrated because of where they first appeared 

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Just now, Hollywood1892 said:

Yep

The subject really got me thinking when it came to IM 55 

There are so many heroes and villains whose first appearances are underrated because of where they first appeared 

That first appearance always confused me.  Put the Thanos appearance in FF, and you've got the hottest bronze Marvel this side of IH181.

(And dammit, I started reading this thread too late last night and ended up buying another copy of IM55.  I don't even remember what happened to my original copy... I traded it for *something*... I wish it was an ASM50, but I have a feeling it was more likely something like a DD18)

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On 6/6/2020 at 8:42 PM, Lightning55 said:

That's a tough question, a lot of variables and speculation.  Like if Nolan Ryan had blown out his arm, could he then possibly be a great right fielder? 

The Spider-Man first appearances you mention may be worth more just because they are Spider-Man issues.  More people collect Spider-Man, so more pressure on any of the issues.  Add something important to that, and there you go, off and running.

Certainly if Thanos had appeared first in a Spider-Man comic, that Spider-Man issue would take a huge leap.  But it already would have had a head start just being part of the Spider-Man line. 

The question becomes: would the increase in value from the base value be more if the character appeared in a higher popularity comic?  I would think so, for the same reason as above, more people to like it. 

And of course it depends on the character - are they likeable, how interesting are they, how are they portrayed, do they get their own title, etc.

Could Nolan Ryan hit though?

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2 hours ago, Schmakt said:

Surfer showing up in FF was a marriage made in heaven, but I wonder what would happen if SS1 was first?  Or if they came out in the same month so that we're looking at something akin to ASM252 v SW8. (albeit with much greater implications)

What?

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A 1st appearance is a 1st appearance regardless of the book; it’s what the character/s become that determines the value. Let’s say the X-men team from Giant Size #1 had appeared in the Avengers book first, all it would do is increase the value of the Avengers book and what’s being charged for a GSX1 would reduce drastically. 1st Mysterio could have been in a Dr. Strange book. Would they have used him in the last Spidey movie? Maybe. Would the price still go up? Definitely, although the Spidey would still be more valuable being the more popular book

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3 hours ago, Schmakt said:

The "which is the real first appearance" thing...

:gossip:

Amazing Spider-Man 252 - May 1984, Marvel Super-Heroes Secret Wars 8 - December 1984

Amazing Spider-Man 258 (in which Spidey discovered the true nature of his new costume and ditched it) - November 1984

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Just now, Lazyboy said:

:gossip:

Amazing Spider-Man 252 - May 1984, Marvel Super-Heroes Secret Wars 8 - December 1984

Amazing Spider-Man 258 (in which Spidey discovered the true nature of his new costume and ditched it) - November 1984

right, yeah... I looked up those months a little bit ago... Am I completely making up some kind of argument about when the "true" first appearance was?  That was a long time ago, but I really thought I remembered something muddy about it first showing up.  Maybe it was just b/c the Secret Wars storyline came first?

Who knows... I barely remember going to bed last night, so who knows what's rattling around in my brain. :)

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14 hours ago, Schmakt said:
14 hours ago, Hollywood1892 said:

Yep

The subject really got me thinking when it came to IM 55 

There are so many heroes and villains whose first appearances are underrated because of where they first appeared 

That first appearance always confused me.  Put the Thanos appearance in FF, and you've got the hottest bronze Marvel this side of IH181.

This reminds me of a few years ago when I was going through one of my boxes and came across a copy of both Iron Man 55 & Iron Man 56 which I never even knew that I had.  I was well aware of the fact that I had a copy of Iron Man 47 with his retold origin and the artwork done by Barry Smith which was clearly the hot mid-run Iron Man book to go after at the time.  Had to look inside the interior of IM 55 because I certainly didn't buy it for the Thanos appearance because he was an absolute nobody at the time and couldn't think of any other reason for me to have brought it at the time.  Then I saw the credits for Jim Starlin which brought me back to the days when artists was one of the key driving factors for collectors to chase after a book.  Probably one of the main reasons why there are so many high grade copies of IM 55 around because they were originally saved by collectors right from the get go.  (thumbsu

All I can say is Thank God that it was Starlin who had done the artwork on IM 55, otherwise I certainly wouldn't have a copy of the book in my personal collection.  Actually, turns out to be 2 copies as I was digging through another box last year and found a second copy of Iron Man 55 by itself.  Clearly, I must have brought this solo copy as a back issue a bit earlier and had forgotten all about it as the price tag on the poly bag with both the IM 55 and IM 56 was a huge 50% more than the poly bag with just the solo copy of IM 55. :censored: Not much for buying dups at the time, but I guess that's what happens when you don't store your books in alpha order and simply toss them into a box based upon when they were purchased.  doh!

Definitely a nice feeling to go from thinking you own zero copies of Iron Man 55 to actually owning 2 HG copies of Iron Man 55.  :whee:

Edited by lou_fine
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6 hours ago, Deadpoolica said:

If Mystique or Sabretooth appeared 1st in an X-Men title they'd both be worth much more

I’m gonna disagree on that one. I think both of them might have wound up d-listers in the continuity. Bringing them out of the obscurity of those other books probably refreshed interest in them as well as their history evolving in the mutant books

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1 hour ago, B2D327 said:

I’m gonna disagree on that one. I think both of them might have wound up d-listers in the continuity. Bringing them out of the obscurity of those other books probably refreshed interest in them as well as their history evolving in the mutant books

The Sabretooth example is the first one that popped into my head. I think a first appearance does better when the character appears in a marquee title. Something like ASM or X-men. I think if Sabretooth had a grand cover and story entrance in UXM it would have more provenance and more value than Iron Fist 14. For the record IF14 is in my top ten favorite covers. I love the blue color and the way 1970’s covers tell a story. Also, if Sabretooth first appeared in UXM we wouldn’t have gotten the highly desirable IF14 price variant. 

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I don’t think Thanos in ASM would have made sense. As for the value, it could have helped. I think if his first appearance had been a cover appearance and in a Avengers then you would be looking at a key that would key sustained value.

I also agree Wolvie in the Hulk worked great because it is such a vibrant action packed cover. Same with Moon Knight on WErewolf By Night. The cover sells it.

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On 6/11/2020 at 9:24 PM, B2D327 said:

I’m gonna disagree on that one. I think both of them might have wound up d-listers in the continuity. Bringing them out of the obscurity of those other books probably refreshed interest in them as well as their history evolving in the mutant books

That’s a good point

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