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Fears in the Hobby
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32 posts in this topic

If new collector blood is entering the market more than collectors are leaving (i.e. demand is increasing for a fixed supply), or if a fixed number of collectors finds their discretionary income increasing, then the price increases are organic and likely to sustain within the lives of the collectors in question. Is that what's happening. Heritage and ComicLink surely know a whole lot about who is new in their market, who is petering out, who is spending more than they did last year, etc. Much analysis could be done if depersonalized data were available.

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Thanks @AnkurJ .. Not the first time I have read this, but glad you posted this. I should probably read it a couple times a year. The Hobby is fantastic and healthy but buying and selling can be an impossible ask here because of how unique things are. I am not a man of unlimited means (or as I like to call them now "Jim Lee Charity auction buyers" lol) so I have to pick and choose what to buy and fly by the seat of my pants when trying to sell. The other issue is everyone hates when they see make an offer as a price.. myself included. Personally I think setting a price and being open to offers, without getting offended if it is significantly lower is the best course of action with so much uncertainty. It can protect both the buyer and seller from "leaving money on the table" but also help the seller to understand what the true value is.. If you price some thing at 1000 dollars then receive 5 offers at 500.. sounds like the true value is $500... so make those offers!

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5 minutes ago, RBerman said:

If new collector blood is entering the market more than collectors are leaving (i.e. demand is increasing for a fixed supply), or if a fixed number of collectors finds their discretionary income increasing, then the price increases are organic and likely to sustain within the lives of the collectors in question. Is that what's happening. Heritage and ComicLink surely know a whole lot about who is new in their market, who is petering out, who is spending more than they did last year, etc. Much analysis could be done if depersonalized data were available.

I have spoken to a few of the "new art" dealers and they seem to say there is a LOT of new collectors.. I see it on social media, comic guys who are now buying art. Maybe @Nexus can weigh in?

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There is a lot of new blood in the hobby with deep pockets. So that’s definitely a plus. My concern with new collectors is many of them are coming into the hobby from reading comics. This COVID situation hasn’t helped comic shops and I hope those readers of comics don’t drop off after things normalize. It may have an impact on the hobby, but how much remains to be seen.

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1 hour ago, AnkurJ said:

Hey everyone

I wrote this article last year for a website which is now defunct. Figured I’d share it here. Feel free to post your thoughts. This is purely my OPINION. 

Should be you be Afraid?

It seems that with any hobby where significant amounts of money is involved, fear coincides with it. Looking at the comic art hobby specifically, it seems like there are three different types of fears that exist. Two are fears that I have noticed in collectors, and one is one I have seen in anyone selling whether it’s a collector or a dealer. Now, these are my opinion, but having discussed them with others in the hobby, there is a consensus that these do in fact exist. 

The first is a fear we can see in any walk of live. The fear of missing out or FOMO as it’s often referred to. Sometimes we see a piece of art that ticks many boxes on our want list. Those pieces I would suggest you not hesitate too much. But what seems to happen much more often is we see a piece that you like, and may tick of some boxes on your list, but isn’t one you love. You look at it, over and over. Ask your friends what they think. Go back and look at it more. In a sense you are trying to convince yourself to buy it. While it may not be a bad decision, in some cases FOMO creeps in, and you pull the trigger. Later on, when the art arrives in the mail, or when you get home from the con, you question yourself. Why is this a problem? It seems collectors will buy a piece just for sake of not leaving a show or auction empty handed. This is great for sellers, but the problem arises when you try to sell the piece. FOMO is a big fear, and I feel as collectors we need to be more disciplined and understand that there is a TON of art coming into the market. Unless you collect something very esoteric, take a step back and make sure you make an educated decision by talking to fellow collectors.

The next fear which is seen more in collectors than dealers is the fear of overpaying. I can say that I am guilty myself of looking up past sales and auction records to decide the value of a piece. Yes, this can be a good way to gauge pricing, but since all art is one of a kind, it’s not a perfect science like graded books. The issue I have seen, is that many resellers understand the FOMO and have priced things astronomically for that reason. Some dealers are often more guilty of overpricing than others, and this is known in the hobby. Collectors often do so too, and I will get into that shortly. What I would advise regarding overpaying is this. The first thing you have to decide is the rarity of a piece. Some pieces from certain books and artists just don’t show up on the market that often. Examples would be Ditko Spiderman, Cockrum X-Men and Miller Daredevil. When you research and find a piece that sold, understand that due to supply vs demand, the price may be significantly higher than it was just a few years ago. If the image is memorable or a great composition, it may be worth overpaying slightly for it. Now what is slightly? 10%? 20% or more over market? It quite possibly may take that much to obtain it. Keep in mind, if the content and artist are all there in a piece, it may be worth the risk. An example I can attest to myself is when I bought a Jim Lee page featuring Wolverine about four years ago. At the time it felt expensive for various reasons. But it checked the box of content and artist, so I went for it. It may have been priced about 25% over market, but today is worth substantially more than what I paid. No regrets. So is it ok to overpay? Yes, but with a few caveats in mind. If the art is plentiful, think twice. If it is not a primo example, think twice. If it doesn’t hit a chord with you, walk away. Odds are it won’t strike a chord with others if you need to sell it. 

The last fear which when combined with the other two makes things very difficult is the fear of underpricing. Price discovery is nothing new in this hobby. We have been seeing it for years. When a dealer or collector is selling a piece, I have noticed they set the price well above any comparable piece has sold for. Why? We have seen on numerous occasions where art is quickly resold for a substantially more than the first owner sold it for. Some will say, why it should matter when the asking price was paid. While this is true, no one likes to leave money on the table. And in some cases it can be many thousands of dollars. So what is the solution many of us have found? Price sky high and hope that either someone will bite, or you will receive an offer close enough to the asking price. In fact, I have seen a few cases where new collectors with quite a bit to spend have purchased pieces that others felt were priced well above market. It is good for the hobby to see new blood enter and not be afraid to spend money, but it’s a vicious cycle which validates the higher prices. 

So as a collector, we need to get past FOMO, and be ready to pass or walk away. Recently I saw a piece by a modern artist posted for sale at $9000. Lovely piece indeed but it was offered privately earlier in the year for about 30% more. While I loved it, I passed and have to assume I was not the only one as it’s still available a year later. If it was an older piece from an artist and content I loved, my thoughts may have been different. It is all a fine balance. Again, if I can help in any way, feel free to reach out. Happy collecting!

 

I dunno, Ankur.  I’ve been hearing these things ever since I started collecting OA twenty years ago.

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15 minutes ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

I dunno, Ankur.  I’ve been hearing these things ever since I started collecting OA twenty years ago.

Now you’ve read them ;) 

They will likely always exist. Art is that type of collectible that it’s not easy to gauge a value, so fear is built into it.

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1 hour ago, Unstoppablejayd said:

The other issue is everyone hates when they see make an offer as a price.. myself included. Personally I think setting a price and being open to offers, without getting offended if it is significantly lower is the best course of action with so much uncertainty. It can protect both the buyer and seller from "leaving money on the table" but also help the seller to understand what the true value is.. If you price some thing at 1000 dollars then receive 5 offers at 500.. sounds like the true value is $500... so make those offers!

I dunno about this. If I see something listed at double or more than what I consider to be reasonable or FMV, it’s extremely unlikely I’d bother making an offer. 

As a general rule, I’d never want to offer less than 70% of the asking price. By asking double or more, I’ll just assume that the seller has an unrealistic expectation and it’s unlikely we’ll reach an agreement, so making an offer will just end up being a waste of mental effort and time. As far as I’m concerned, those items might as well be one of those Coollines “make offer” situations.

Edited by Skizz
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31 minutes ago, grapeape said:

More then anytime in our brief history of OA buy and trade I’m seeing many items sell for significantly less-then the last time purchased.

Care to share examples or a new thread along that line? I've seen a few but not much, not enough to use the word "many" myself.

33 minutes ago, grapeape said:

There is a reckless abandon I miss about OA offered eBay and elsewhere 1995-2002. Seemingly unlimited product with potential on ROI.

Yes. I really miss the Golden Age of buying then, we didn't even know how good we had it.

So happy I kept 95% of what I bought those years :headbang:

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12 minutes ago, Skizz said:

I dunno about this. If I see something listed at double or more than what I consider to be reasonable or FMV, it’s extremely unlikely I’d bother making an offer. 

As a general rule, I’d never want to offer less than 70% of the asking price. By asking double or more, I’ll just assume that the seller has an unrealistic expectation and it’s unlikely we’ll reach an agreement, so making an offer will just end up being a waste of mental effort and time. As far as I’m concerned, those items might as well be one of Coollines “make offer” situations.

I do not know.. I have bought things at 50% of ask before ad probably will again, I think there is no wasted conversation if it is something you want.  DO you prefer the make an offer crowd as a price?

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19 minutes ago, Unstoppablejayd said:

I do not know.. I have bought things at 50% of ask before ad probably will again, I think there is no wasted conversation if it is something you want.  DO you prefer the make an offer crowd as a price?

As far as I’m concerned, seeing something listed double or more above what I consider reasonable is only MARGINALLY better than the ‘make offer’ crowd.

I wouldn’t want to engage with either. 

I have a friend who makes tons of low ball offers at 50% or less. Most sellers don’t respond or politely reject, and sometimes not so politely reject. Once in a while, he manages to reach a deal. 

It sounds exhausting and I just don’t have the energy for that, at least not for something that’s supposed to be a fun hobby. 

Edited by Skizz
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3 hours ago, AnkurJ said:

Hey everyone

I wrote this article last year for a website which is now defunct. Figured I’d share it here. Feel free to post your thoughts. This is purely my OPINION. 

Should be you be Afraid?

 

 

I often fear that my appearance on a website will kill it.

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56 minutes ago, vodou said:

Care to share examples or a new thread along that line? I've seen a few but not much, not enough to use the word "many" myself.

Yes. I really miss the Golden Age of buying then, we didn't even know how good we had it.

So happy I kept 95% of what I bought those years :headbang:

 

57 minutes ago, vodou said:

Care to share examples or a new thread along that line? I've seen a few but not much, not enough to use the word "many" myself.

Yes. I really miss the Golden Age of buying then, we didn't even know how good we had it.

So happy I kept 95% of what I bought those years :headbang:

A new thread might be a good idea though it’s not necessarily in anyone’s interest to show declining sales examples. (Bargain art hunters aside)

My point is more about self discipline. We are our own worst enemies. If I were the new generation of collectors wandering into the market today I believe there is less room for error.

In the time I mentioned and you celebrate with me 😂 you could buy almost any art page and make money next time around. It feels like return profit is priced out of most transactions for a foreseeable future. 
 

Less room for miscalculation?

Take risk?

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2 minutes ago, grapeape said:

 

A new thread might be a good idea though it’s not necessarily in anyone’s interest to show declining sales examples. (Bargain art hunters aside)

My point is more about self discipline. We are our own worst enemies. If I were the new generation of collectors wandering into the market today I believe there is less room for error.

In the time I mentioned and you celebrate with me 😂 you could buy almost any art page and make money next time around. It feels like return profit is priced out of most transactions for a foreseeable future. 
 

Less room for miscalculation?

Take risk?

Agree 100% especially if you have seen what new art is being sold for ... 

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20 minutes ago, John E. said:

There is an active thread right now called “Buying Something You Don’t Like” that either legitimizes FOMO or completely voids it. I can’t tell which. 

I think it’s a bit different. I bought something I didn’t like because it furthers my personal goal of improving the whole collection. And curiously, it gave me a bit more respect for the artist’s work, even while still disliking the drawing for the main character, because I really dissected the whole composition. I didn’t fear buying it, or not, although I would have preferred to spend less.

Sometimes people buy things for non-obvious reasons. This is one of them.

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20 minutes ago, grapeape said:

 

A new thread might be a good idea though it’s not necessarily in anyone’s interest to show declining sales examples. (Bargain art hunters aside)

My point is more about self discipline. We are our own worst enemies. If I were the new generation of collectors wandering into the market today I believe there is less room for error.

In the time I mentioned and you celebrate with me 😂 you could buy almost any art page and make money next time around. It feels like return profit is priced out of most transactions for a foreseeable future. 
 

Less room for miscalculation?

Take risk?

Perhaps, however there is far more information available to the newer collector over the past 10 years to help them minimize potential mistakes and mitigate risk.

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1 hour ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

Perhaps, however there is far more information available to the newer collector over the past 10 years to help them minimize potential mistakes and mitigate risk.

You can blame @alxjhnsn and his ‘teach-a-man-to-fish’ for that. 😉

2 hours ago, Unstoppablejayd said:

Agree 100% especially if you have seen what new art is being sold for ... 

We can’t really begrudge reps and artists of their pricing for tomorrow of the art from newer comic books. They see how great artists in the 80s and 90s sold their art to collectors for next to nothing and now that art goes for tens of thousands, whilst those artists get no benefit of that; the newer artists would naturally want to avoid such a situation.

Now, if they price their art to the point that no one is buying at all, then that’s also a lesson to them.

But from what I’ve seen, art from current comics generally sells well and sells fast. 

Edited by Skizz
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