The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Redshade]

9 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

On the later series of Flash reprints, Number 1 has an ad for a Superman hardbacked annual on the inside back cover, but Number 2 has the ad below, which I hope is legible.

Ticket To Ride is from 1965, so that is the earliest possible date, without checking the other tracks, some of which I know are from 1964 and 1965.

Also, Number 4 reprints the same ad.

This definitely nails it down to late 1964 or more probably 1965 looking at some of those songs. Nice one. If you contact Duncan McAlpine of the GB Price Guide I'm sure that he would be more than happy to alter his info and in all likelihood would give you a namecheck. info@comicpriceguide.co.uk

[Get Marwood & I]

Charlton theory coming soon....

[Get Marwood & I]

13 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Charlton theory coming soon....

And here it is.

For DC, the available stamped examples plot as follows, and we either take the 6's or the 8's as the first DC shipment to the UK:

 

We know that there are many Charlton books with 1959 cover dates which are stamped earlier than '6' or '8'. Indeed, my early thread posts show Charlton's War at Sea #29, cover dated February 1959, and stamped a '2'. And we have a handful of 1958 Charlton 100 pagers in the mix too with '1' stamps.

So the question is - did the Charlton examples precede the DCs, or did they come over - out of sequence - in later stamping cycles?

There are 3 likely scenarios as I see it:

Scenario A has the books plotted in stamp order and we can see six examples populating the '1' box. But the dates don't make sense as the first ever use of the '1' stamp would likely have far preceded the availability in the UK of October 1958 cover dated books. Also the lack of 3-6 examples looks out of step. So the scenario seems most unlikely to me:

 

 

Scenario B has the books plotted in the second cycle.

But, again, the 1's and 2's seem to have generally later cover dates than the books that follow and there is no flow to them. So this scenario doesn't feel right either:

 

Scenario C has the books plotted with the 8's and 9's in the first cycle, and the remainder in the second:

This flows better and feels right to me. If we accept that the DC 6's are likely late cycle two books, and therefore the DC's start with stamp #8, then it makes total sense that the Charlton examples would also start then. It also feels right because the first ever number 8 stamp would:

A. Deliver the books to the UK around January 1960, which anecdotal evidence supports (see my earlier analysis)

B. Fit with the notes we have seen regarding when the US-UK embargo was lifted (mid-1959) and books could come to the UK legally 

 

So my money is on the whole thing starting with the first cycle 8 stamp with the 6 stamp DCs being second wave - that looks like this:

The DCs have some cover date vs stamp number chronological order - the Charltons are largely a random mix of 1958/1959 overstock or unsold copies.

Any thoughts? 

 

[Garystar]

First Marvels are as per Marwood’s summary on page three of this topic;

The earliest known distributed Thorpe and Porter comic is Journey Into Mystery #58 dated May 1960 and is pre-printed 9d. Indeed T&P early distribution were all UKPV, stamps didn’t appear until 1962 and 1963 annuals and not regularly on monthly comics until November 1964 when there was a pause in UKPV issues. I am yet to find a stamp for October 1964, the first month with no UKPV. I have found a few earlier examples of T&P stamped Marvels but nothing (apart from annuals) before 1964 which suggests these were probably distributed months after release or possibly caught up with another company’s remainders.

The earliest known distributed L Miller comic is Gunsmoke Western #58 dated May 1960 which has a stamp and printed 9d UK cover price.

I would speculate that there are no T&Ps before May 1960, they did not start stamping Marvels for a couple of years and the extensive research by Marwood and Duncan McAlpine for his guide hasn’t unearthed any earlier UKPV so I very much doubt any exist. I suppose there is a possibility of kid Colt 89 or Gunsmoke western 57 (March 1960) or Two Gun Kid 53 (April 1960) turning up as Millers but these issues even as cents are so scarce in UK Millers might never be found even if they do exist.

Albert and Marwood got me curious as to patterns in the numbering so I’ve started to populate a template of all Marvel T&P stamps from first monthly occurrence, November 1964, to last possible date October 1971 (although I am yet to find a stamp later than July 1971). I’ll post a summary shortly.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Garystar said:

I suppose there is a possibility of kid Colt 89 or Gunsmoke western 57 (March 1960) or Two Gun Kid 53 (April 1960) turning up as Millers but these issues even as cents are so scarce in UK Millers might never be found even if they do exist.

Based on my extensive Miller research, I'm going to stick my neck out and say there's near to zero chance of that Gary. So expect one along any day now 

1 hour ago, Garystar said:

Albert and Marwood got me curious as to patterns in the numbering so I’ve started to populate a template of all Marvel T&P stamps from first monthly occurrence, November 1964, to last possible date October 1971 (although I am yet to find a stamp later than July 1971). I’ll post a summary shortly.

Looking forward to it. I can't look back on it, because it hasn't happened yet 

[Get Marwood & I]

3 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

So my money is on the whole thing starting with the first cycle 8 stamp with the 6 stamp DCs being second wave - that looks like this:

The DCs have some cover date vs stamp number chronological order - the Charltons are largely a random mix of 1958/1959 overstock or unsold copies.

Any thoughts? 

I looked at the other publishers who have 1958 / 1959 stamped books by the way - ACG and Archie - and concluded that I don't have enough examples to justify adding them in. A lot of the Archies are stamped with a 6 though, regardless of cover dates, so they either are second cycle bulk late comers, or they maybe make up the DC '6' compliment and make that stamp number the 'first ever' UK comic shipment lot. 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 7/11/2020 at 9:58 PM, 01TheDude said:

that turns my thought that the stamp is possibly based on the arrival of the books. So a large supply of the same comic coming in on the same shipment-- all of them got the same stamp- possibly indicating the shipment batch number.

Marwood, I thank you for your kind comments on my contribution to the numbered T & P stamps, but the credit, I feel, is not entirely mine.

I have glanced back at the postings in this thread before I became involved, and I now see that 01TheDude put forward basically the same suggestion as far back as page 6 of this thread, but as he had no data to hand at the time to back it up the idea was not developed.

I think 01TheDude should get at least a share, if indeed not the lion's share, of the credit, don't you?

Also, I cannot help but think that I was by not the only collector at the time to notice that the stamp number, with occasional hiccups, was creeping inexorably upwards.

[Get Marwood & I]

44 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

On 7/11/2020 at 9:58 PM, 01TheDude said:

that turns my thought that the stamp is possibly based on the arrival of the books. So a large supply of the same comic coming in on the same shipment-- all of them got the same stamp- possibly indicating the shipment batch number.

Marwood, I thank you for your kind comments on my contribution to the numbered T & P stamps, but the credit, I feel, is not entirely mine.

I have glanced back at the postings in this thread before I became involved, and I now see that 01TheDude put forward basically the same suggestion as far back as page 6 of this thread, but as he had no data to hand at the time to back it up the idea was not developed.

I think 01TheDude should get at least a share, if indeed not the lion's share, of the credit, don't you?

Also, I cannot help but think that I was by not the only collector at the time to notice that the stamp number, with occasional hiccups, was creeping inexorably upwards

Oh dear, how clumsy of me to miss that. I shall make amends in the morning Albert. My apologies Dude 

[Get Marwood & I]

Yes, I've just read those posts again and I find I can't recall even my own responses to them, let alone the original suggestions. I'm quite perplexed by this and not a little fed up by it if I'm honest. Sorry again. 

[Get Marwood & I]

Morning guys

@01TheDude @Albert Tatlock

I've added a summary page to my journal and name checked you both:

 

 

Dude, apologies again for managing to forget your first input which was spot on as it turned out. Albert, thanks for pointing out my error and for having the grace to share the credit.

[Garystar]

When Marvel enter the fray of stamping in mid 60s the linear progression of numbers seems to be lost although there are some signs, and you do see the same number repeating across titles for a given month. By the latter 60s Marvels are virtually all number 3, then all T&P (no number). Is this Marvel only or do other companies follow same pattern?

I’ll post more and send Marwood spreadsheet when I’ve populated a few more titles. 
 

[Get Marwood & I]

43 minutes ago, Garystar said:

When Marvel enter the fray of stamping in mid 60s the linear progression of numbers seems to be lost although there are some signs, and you do see the same number repeating across titles for a given month. By the latter 60s Marvels are virtually all number 3, then all T&P (no number). Is this Marvel only or do other companies follow same pattern?

I’ll post more and send Marwood spreadsheet when I’ve populated a few more titles. 
 

That's interesting Gary. It does seem to be the case at the moment that the number sequencing holds true for DC but less so for the other publishers. I wonder if the arrangement of US returns being imported to the UK was an 'agreed' sequential arrangement for DC only, and the other publisher books sort of came along for the ride if you like. Maybe the position for Marvel was only strict in relation to the solicitation of printed price UKPVs - a manifestly formal arrangement - but unstructured when it came to the importation of cents copies - they just came over 'as and when'. 

I've not studied the Marvel stamps in any depth at all as the focus of this thread was the 'early distribution' in 1959/1960 and, clearly, Marvel were only in the game in respect of their printed UKPV arrangement which started in May 1960 with cents stamped copies not appearing until much later. I'm intrigued to see what your spreadsheet shows. 

[Get Marwood & I]

21 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

On 10/24/2020 at 10:45 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

So my money is on the whole thing starting with the first cycle 8 stamp with the 6 stamp DCs being second wave - that looks like this:

The DCs have some cover date vs stamp number chronological order - the Charltons are largely a random mix of 1958/1959 overstock or unsold copies.

Any thoughts? 

I looked at the other publishers who have 1958 / 1959 stamped books by the way - ACG and Archie - and concluded that I don't have enough examples to justify adding them in. A lot of the Archies are stamped with a 6 though, regardless of cover dates, so they either are second cycle bulk late comers, or they maybe make up the DC '6' compliment and make that stamp number the 'first ever' UK comic shipment lot. 

While we wait, does anyone have any thoughts on my 'number 8 was the first ever comic shipment' theory? Albert?

[Get Marwood & I]

Clip from an early 1970's UK Fanzine - see 'Distribution Pros & Cons':

[Albert Tatlock]

1 hour ago, Get Marwood & I said:

While we wait, does anyone have any thoughts on my 'number 8 was the first ever comic shipment' theory?

More than likely. October 1959 would, in theory, have had a 7 stamp, but as none have been found, it is perfectly possible that those arrived with the Novembers and were stamped with an 8.

Back in the day, long before people were buying from US sources, I obtained 2nd hand copies of Adventure 265 and Superboy 76, which were probably stamped, but if so, I could not tell which number. Other collectors of the time also managed to find Superboy 76.

One November issue I was never able to come across, though, was Challengers 10. Have any stamped copies surfaced?

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Albert Tatlock said:

More than likely. October 1959 would, in theory, have had a 7 stamp, but as none have been found, it is perfectly possible that those arrived with the Novembers and were stamped with an 8.

I'm not sure I follow you Albert? Ignoring the 6's (as probably second cycle stamped books) we only have 8's and 9's tabled so far and each has a mix of cover dates covering 2-3 months. When you say 'October would have had a 7 stamp' why do you think that? The examples of the 8 stamp in my table are predominantly December cover dates. The 9's are predominantly Decembers and Januarys. Why do you think October needs to be in the mix? Is it because of Duncan's site references and the handful of actual October cover dated books that we've seen (of which Batman #127 is a 9 and the Boone #1's are probable second wave 6 stamps)?

Quote

Back in the day, long before people were buying from US sources, I obtained 2nd hand copies of Adventure 265 and Superboy 76, which were probably stamped, but if so, I could not tell which number. Other collectors of the time also managed to find Superboy 76.

I note you say 'probably' - if you're recollection is correct and they were stamped, could they not have been stamped with an 8 or a 9? The only reason I challenge is that I have periodically looked for earlier examples than those posted on Duncan's site for many years and I have rarely seen anything stamped earlier than the four pictured examples below - and no Superboy 76 has ever materialised in my searches:

The key point for me is identifying which was the first stamp, not cover date. If our theory of stamps matching sequential calendar shipment events is correct, then the first UK arrivals would be the 8's and their cover dates may be anything from October all the way to February 1960. So if a Flash 108 or a Showcase 22 did exist, the chances are their stamps would be an 8. What do you think?

Quote

One November issue I was never able to come across, though, was Challengers 10. Have any stamped copies surfaced?

I haven't seen one yet myself. It's one of the things I'd like to drive out of this exercise though - a more expansive, evidence based list of the first known DC copies to arrive officially in the UK. Duncan's site shows four pictorial examples plus a list of other possible candidates (unless there is something else available on the site which you only get from being a member, which I'm not). Our table shows many more examples and also fine tunes them to a specific shipment - 8 or 9.

There are two ways of looking at this I suppose - earliest stamped cover dates / issue numbers, or earliest numbered stamp regardless of cover date (being the 8, if our research here holds true). The fly in the overall ointment of course is the fact that any given stamped issue could be a late comer from a second cycle!

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/21/2020 at 7:35 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

The first use of the 7 stamp is theoretically on the October 1959 cover dates, but if none can be found, then the sequence would start with 8, and the number 6 examples would have to be very late arrivals. Best place to look for October 1959 with a 7 stamp would be in the monthly titles.

Theoretically is the operative word here. It is looking more and more likely that your idea of 8 being the first is correct.

I, and several other local collectors, spent several years in the 1960s trying to find those early issues, but the only ones I came across were Adventure 265, Batman 127 and Superboy 76, unless I came across any war or western ones, which I would have traded on.

No Octobers from widely distributed titles like Action, Superman, Detective, Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, and also the probably less frequently encountered Blackhawk, Strange Adventures, Unexpected and both House Of, so I think they must not have been included in the first shipment. 

Is it possible to check USA newsstand distribution dates for the October issues? Possibly only those latest in the supply chain were shipped to the UK.

Flash 108 was dated September, so would not have made it in any case.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Get Marwood & I said:

The only reason I challenge is that I have periodically looked for earlier examples than those posted on Duncan's site for many years....

Here's an example of what I mean.

On the CBPG UK regarding Superman #132 we have two references:

The first is the inclusion in the list of First Distribution comics - note no picture, which is odd given the presence of the other mainstays (Flash, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern):

 

The second reference is here, mentioning Batman #127 and Superman #132 as having small quantities:

 

I've seen quite a few stamped Batman #127's in my online searches down the years, but not one Superman #132.

There are 6 Superman 132's on eBay UK at present, of which one even states it's the first UK distributed book:

But note it's not a stamped copy. Nor are any of the others.

All the main UK online dealers have no copies or copies without stamps. I've carried a list of the alleged 'first UK distributed' DCs with me to fairs for some years now and have never seen one in the wild. So it makes you wonder if this issue did actually ever come over doesn't it? Maybe Duncan added it to the list because he reasoned that if Batman #127 was present....

Now I've been proven wrong many times and I'm sure I will be again, but if a copy does show - and it probably will now - what's the betting that it has a number 8 or 9?

@Kevin.J - have you gone through your collection yet? Find us one mate 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

4 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Theoretically is the operative word here. It is looking more and more likely that your idea of 8 being the first is correct.

I, and several other local collectors, spent several years in the 1960s trying to find those early issues, but the only ones I came across were Adventure 265, Batman 127 and Superboy 76, unless I came across any war or western ones, which I would have traded on.

No Octobers from widely distributed titles like Action, Superman, Detective, Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, and also the probably less frequently encountered Blackhawk, Strange Adventures, Unexpected and both House Of, so I think they must not have been included in the first shipment. 

So maybe Adventure #265 and Superboy #76 are out there and those and our lone Batman 127 and Boone #1 Octobers were just late?

4 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Is it possible to check USA newsstand distribution dates for the October issues? Possibly only those latest in the supply chain were shipped to the UK.

Flash 108 was dated September, so would not have made it in any case.

It is, using Mike's Comic Newsstand's 'on sale dates' but it's a time consuming exercise and, whilst it has worked for me in other areas (see DC UKPV thread!), I wonder how helpful it would be here given the likely wide variance in timings of any fledgling US returns process. I may have a go anyway though Albert 

[Albert Tatlock]

I got my Superman 132 in 1967 from an American visitor whose father worked in Manchester for a couple of years. He had picked it up second hand in Brooklyn so it would not have been stamped.

Given the easy availability of Superman 133, I do not believe that 132 was shipped with the first batch.

Of course, that would not prevent late returns being sent later, though, but if there are no stamped copies at all, that is highly suggestive.