The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Just uploaded rest of 1960 and 1961 B & B.

I have put a tag at the bottom so you know where each came from, which you can trim off when necessary.

The B & B 28 above is the same as 1 of the 2 partial scans I sent a couple of days ago, it is not a fresh one, please take a note so you are not adding duplicate material to the database.

Thanking you - I'll add them in and then I'm ready to post the final doc...

[Albert Tatlock]

22 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Be honest Albert. You used to be a newsagent didn't you. 

A humble paperboy.

[Get Marwood & I]

So, here it is. Some sections I've had to compress somewhat to be able to fit them on a page but if you save them to your PC you can enlarge them.

Initial commentary under each page:

The review purposes have been served I feel - we have a summary of the earliest known stamped DC issues by cover date for each of the titles in existence during the first four stamping cycles (I'll update this as new / earlier examples appear) and we have proven the sequential nature of the stamping cycles, broadly in line with cover dates. We are also able to determine the make up of the first ever arrivals from the first cycle page - our 8s and 9s, assuming we all agree that the 6s are late second cycle books:

Whilst the majority of the books in the 8 slot have December 59 cover dates there is a mix of around 3 months and this is consistent throughout the early subsequent stamp numbers. So we can see from this exercise that the mix of each delivery comprised a spread of books cover dated within two to three months of each other (excluding outliers).

We can also see from the 8 and 9 slots on the first cycle that it was not uncommon for multiple issues to arrive in the same delivery, e.g. Strange Adventures #110,111 & 112 in the 9 stamp slot and My Greatest Adventure #38 & 39 in the 8 slot. This all rings true if you think about the mechanics and scale of the operation.

There are no real outliers in these first two slots - everything looks broadly consistent and the fact that there are more books in the 9 than 8 slot also feels consistent with the process bedding in.

It will be interesting to see how the addition of Charlton, Archie and ACG changes the mix. A post for another day!

Next slide (I feel like the bloke on the Coronavirus briefing - and you can't read their charts either):

The second cycle starts off in a similar vein, but what strikes me as how the numbers seem to drop in the middle phases. Note here too that for the first time, the cover date 'majority' months fall out of calendar sequence with two March majorities in stamp 2 and 3, and two Mays in 5 and 6. 

In respect of 5 and 6, it looks like the titles cover dated May 1960 are spread over two deliveries rather than than having the same title in each stamp slot. The 6 slot, you'll see, has the least books but - don't forget - we are proposing to add the 6 books from the first cycle to them which would then bolster the delivery numbers. In a small way, that kind of validates the notion that those books are indeed late second cycle books. 

No real surprises other than that - just the first examples of obviously late books, e.g. the few March books in the otherwise August focussed 8 stamp slot.

Next slide!

Here you can see that the virus is particularly virulent, oh, sorry, wrong subject.

A fairly consistent pattern in the third cycle. Note how the numbers drop off in the 9 slot though with the books effectively being an extension of the 8 slots May cover dated titles. This and the other examples indicate a sort of hiccup in the flow if you like. I know this is a limited exercise, but it does seem that the 3rd cycle 9 stamp delivery was a scant one. 

The fourth slide picks up where the third left off with a low number of books in the 1 slot:

And then some nice consistency sets in with most slots having a cover date mix of only two months not the three of the earlier cycles. Things were settling in by this point it seems.

So that's just a high level review but it's been a handy little exercise and one which can only grow our understanding of what likely arrived and when.

I may take a break for a bit from this as it's quite punishing on the eyes and I haven't long been over a bout of double vision. But at some point I will try to position the many 1958-1960 stamped books that I have for Charlton, Archie and ACG - in more detail than the earlier attempts in this thread - to see if everything fits.

All good fun. Thanks for the help so far guys 

[Get Marwood & I]

28 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

A humble paperboy.

[Get Marwood & I]

Assuming it all stacks up, and the 8 stamp was the first, this is what your local newsagent might have received, in part or in full, sometime in early 1960....

[Albert Tatlock]

T'riffic, Marwood.

That is a prodigious amount of graft you have put in there.

Comrade Stakhanov doffs his cap to you!

And so do !.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Albert Tatlock
add 1 line

[Get Marwood & I]

17 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

T'riffic, Marwood.

That is a prodigious amount of graft you have put in there.

Comrade Stakhanov doffs his cap to you!

And so do !.

Cheers Albert. It's something to do isn't it 

[Garystar]

Have we determined that comics were SOR in the UK? If the numbers on stamped DCs and others indicate a return schedule where do Marvels fit in - firm sale when they were UKPV and SOR when they were stamped? What about the sizable amount where the stamp is illegible. Although scarce what about Marvel UKPVs with a stamp? Even if SOR it seems a time intensive exercise for the newsagent and the distributor if they have to separate Marvel from others and then check all these hard to read numbers, wouldn’t newsagents have just cleared out the last months issues?

Possible different processes in different areas? By the late 60s all Marvels were using stamp number three so possibly the stamps purpose changed over time?

[Garystar]

3 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Next slide (I feel like the bloke on the Coronavirus briefing - and you can't read their charts either):

Try living in the South West - when regional slides shown our slide is always at the bottom obscured by the BBC logo and rolling banner. 

[Redshade]

33 minutes ago, Garystar said:

Have we determined that comics were SOR in the UK? If the numbers on stamped DCs and others indicate a return schedule where do Marvels fit in - firm sale when they were UKPV and SOR when they were stamped? What about the sizable amount where the stamp is illegible. Although scarce what about Marvel UKPVs with a stamp? Even if SOR it seems a time intensive exercise for the newsagent and the distributor if they have to separate Marvel from others and then check all these hard to read numbers, wouldn’t newsagents have just cleared out the last months issues?

Possible different processes in different areas? By the late 60s all Marvels were using stamp number three so possibly the stamps purpose changed over time?

Not withstanding the esteemed research here by Marwood, Albert et al which has a certain fascination and is commendable in its own right I simply as yet do not believe that the random box of comics that newsagents received each delivery cycle were returnable. This is not my memory of the 60s UK distribution of US comics which was pretty slapdash to say the least . The fact that these comics arrived out of sequence (or not at all) precludes that idea for me and I simply do not believe it to have been logistically possible to itemise individual US comics in such a way as to facilitate returns.

I would love to see copies of newsagent/distributor SOR agreements or (pre-printed?) order forms or consignment notes/manifests etc.

And there is that blasted elephant that keeps up its incessant trumpeting; why only nine and not twelve numbers?

[Get Marwood & I]

31 minutes ago, Redshade said:

1 hour ago, Garystar said:

Have we determined that comics were SOR in the UK? If the numbers on stamped DCs and others indicate a return schedule where do Marvels fit in - firm sale when they were UKPV and SOR when they were stamped? What about the sizable amount where the stamp is illegible. Although scarce what about Marvel UKPVs with a stamp? Even if SOR it seems a time intensive exercise for the newsagent and the distributor if they have to separate Marvel from others and then check all these hard to read numbers, wouldn’t newsagents have just cleared out the last months issues?

Possible different processes in different areas? By the late 60s all Marvels were using stamp number three so possibly the stamps purpose changed over time?

Not withstanding the esteemed research here by Marwood, Albert et al which has a certain fascination and is commendable in its own right I simply as yet do not believe that the random box of comics that newsagents received each delivery cycle were returnable. This is not my memory of the 60s UK distribution of US comics which was pretty slapdash to say the least . The fact that these comics arrived out of sequence (or not at all) precludes that idea for me and I simply do not believe it to have been logistically possible to itemise individual US comics in such a way as to facilitate returns.

I would love to see copies of newsagent/distributor SOR agreements or (pre-printed?) order forms or consignment notes/manifests etc.

And there is that blasted elephant that keeps up its incessant trumpeting; why only nine and not twelve numbers?

Perhaps the process was different regionally and that may explain the different recollections. And there are lots of 'issues' with the process, as we have collectively identified. But the core finding is, I think, unquestionable - the fact that the numbers are sequential, broadly in line with cover months, and in line with shipping arrivals. Everything else is guesswork and there is anecdotal evidence for the pros and cons we've identified. The T&P remaindered annuals and 'Double Doubles' could just have easily been made up by T&P prior to distribution as they could from returns from UK newsagents.

I like to work on facts as you guys know, present them, and then speculate on the aspects on the periphery that aren't known or provable. As an example, we know that Charlton's were distributed by T&P for a period, as we have the stamped copies to prove it. And yet I never saw a Charlton in my life as a kid in and around London. I am told by many dealers that Charlton were distributed only in certain areas. So my area was likely not one of them. And the numbers of extant copies is tiny compared to DC. Maybe the Charltons and ACGs were so few in number that they were only distributed to certain areas - there wasn't enough for everyone - and the returns were non-existent.

I think it is likely that the DC process was the main one and the other titles just came along for the ride. Marvel had a formal agreement with its printed UKPVs, supported by stamped cents copies when that process was suspended. 

I took some persuading that a returns process guided by the T&P numbering made sense. But there is still no direct evidence that it was the case, nationwide or only in certain regions. All that is educated guesswork, including which publishers books may or may not have been a part of it.

So for me, all we have proven is that the stamp numbers had a pattern and what that pattern indicated. All other aspects are still up for grabs. We can't even say that the first cycle DC 6 stamps were indeed first or second cycle really, for sure. Or that the 1959 Charltons came over consecutively by cover date or in one illogical bulk lot. 

It's fun to speculate and to try to work things out. But I'm always careful to post only the facts as 'definitive' statements, hence the sequencing tables are the only aspect of this debate that have made it into my Journal pages.

My approach is always the same - bang on, jabber away, make - hopefully - entertaining noise and then wait for the right person to arrive with the smoking gun. 

[Albert Tatlock]

Here is a project waiting to be undertaken by an intrepid researcher:

There was a periodical entitled The Newsagents' and Booksellers' Review.

It continued under various titles from late Victorian times until about August 1956, after which it appears not to have regenerated, although the trade presumably still had some kind of journal.

It will necessitate a visit to the British Library at St Pancras, where copies are held. A Reader's Pass is required, but its acquisition appears to be a formality.

N&BR does not cover the timeframe covered in this thread, but from it we may be able to glean background information of value regarding the wholesale and retail magazine trade in the 1950s.

I know that it has provided reference material to researchers into the 'Horror Comics' scare campaign of the mid-1950s.

So who will volunteer (everyone else take one step backwards, that's the way it's done)?

[Garystar]

13 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

It will necessitate a visit to the British Library at St Pancras,

Apart from a visit to Wembley I haven’t been to London since 2002 (you’ll like this Marwood, last time was to see Morrissey at Albert Hall) and I don’t think I’ll be going any time soon. 

[Albert Tatlock]

1 minute ago, Garystar said:

I don’t think I’ll be going any time soon. 

Garystar takes swift rearward step, who is left?

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Garystar said:

Apart from a visit to Wembley I haven’t been to London since 2002 (you’ll like this Marwood, last time was to see Morrissey at Albert Hall) and I don’t think I’ll be going any time soon. 

I was probably there Gary. Lost track of how many times I've seen him. I was at the Wembley show in March. The last big concert of the year as far as I know. Lockdown was the following day.

1 hour ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Garystar takes swift rearward step, who is left?

I'll add it to my post-lockdown II to do list Albert. 

[rakehell]

12 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

It will necessitate a visit to the British Library at St Pancras, where copies are held.

These will probably be at the Boston Spa site, not 200 meters from where I am typing this while skiving at my desk. They will be in one of the Automated Storage Buildings (Robots!!), but they would be sent to St. Pancras for your perusal.

 

12 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

A Reader's Pass is required, but its acquisition appears to be a formality.

This is true, however, the Reading Rooms are all closed until December, due to the current lockdown. 

[Albert Tatlock]

3 hours ago, rakehell said:

These will probably be at the Boston Spa site

Quite possibly. When order is restored we will be able to find out.

[Garystar]

Doesn’t advance first distribution knowledge but here’s one of mine I was surprised to see had been distributed with a T&P stamp. 

[Get Marwood & I]

23 minutes ago, Garystar said:

Doesn’t advance first distribution knowledge but here’s one of mine I was surprised to see had been distributed with a T&P stamp. 

That is a weird one.

Gary, you've studied the later Marvels in more depth than I - we know that the stamped copies appeared during the early printed UKPV gaps as per previous posts, which makes sense (and indicates that shipping strikes were unlikely to be the cause of those cessations). From your review, and in the later stages, did you detect whether stamped copies were always the result of UKPV gaps, or were there lots of stamped copies for titles that had either UKPVs extant or no printed UKPVS at all (like your Pest above)?

It begs the general question, why import and stamp cents copies if you have a formal arrangement to have them printed? That makes no sense. Same goes for DC and the other publishers where applicable. 

It does seem that the process for Marvel, in the later stages, was a mix of formally requested printed UKPVs but also unsold (presumably) US overstock. Maybe the overstock was a lot cheaper than the UKPVs.

 

[Garystar]

1 hour ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Gary, you've studied the later Marvels in more depth than I - we know that the stamped copies appeared during the early printed UKPV gaps as per previous posts, which makes sense (and indicates that shipping strikes were unlikely to be the cause of those cessations). From your review, and in the later stages, did you detect whether stamped copies were always the result of UKPV gaps, or were there lots of stamped copies for titles that had either UKPVs extant or no printed UKPVS at all (like your Pest above)?

It begs the general question, why import and stamp cents copies if you have a formal arrangement to have them printed? That makes no sense. Same goes for DC and the other publishers where applicable. 

It does seem that the process for Marvel, in the later stages, was a mix of formally requested printed UKPVs but also unsold (presumably) US overstock. Maybe the overstock was a lot cheaper than the UKPVs.

Until March 1969 Marvels were generally UKPV with stamps generally only appearing during gaps of no UKPV. In April 1969 UKPVs restarted (after a year and half gap when only T&P stamps appeared) at 1/- price, however unlike previous periods of UKPVs there is an abundance of stamped copies also. I speculated either;

·         There were reduced numbers of UKPVs which meant T&P needed to fill the gap with stamped cents copies

·         Demand had increased to the extent that T&P needed more supply

·         World Distributors had taken over distribution of UKPVs and T&P stamps were in competition? (I can’t find when World Distributors took over from Thorpe and Porter).

From restart of UKPVs in April 1969 for around 6 months 1-9 stamping continues albeit in a rather random way, then all stamps become number 3. For one month, August 1970, the stamp becomes “5p/1/-“ and thereafter all stamps are T&P – ampersand rather than a number. The last stamp I can find is July 1971. From here on in Marvels are either UKPV or they are non-distributed – no more stamps.

From April 1969 onwards I found no instances of MAJOR TITLES (Avengers, Daredevil, Spidey, FF etc) with a T&P stamp which didn’t exist as a UKPV. However lesser titles such as Peter The Little Pest (posted) Kull, Kid Colt do appear as T&P stamps where no UKPV exists. There might be something in this I’ll have a ponder.