The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Garystar]

1 hour ago, themagicrobot said:

So. are we saying that all 1960s DCs visited a spinner rack Stateside for a month, were handled numerous times. Shipped over here on a slow boat, handled again by T&P to stamp them, placed into spinner racks here and yet still looked pretty good and shiny when I purchased them? I'm not convinced about that

From Paperbacks Pulp & Comic Collector;

Anyone know who Dennis Juba is?

[Albert Tatlock]

2 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

how so many made that alleged journey without being battered.

Possibly the obviously battered copies were weeded out by DC distrtibution staff before shipping. T & P would not have wanted their pennies wasted on substandard merchandise.

[Albert Tatlock]

7 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

the second Marvel UKPV hiatus,

We have not made much headway in the first distribution problem area, that of late 1960.

As T & P and Miller had been importing Marvels for several months, and presumably doing so profitably, why, or as Stan Lee would have put it, why, WHY, WHY!!??   would they call a halt?

And why resume again after so short a gap? Surely there cannot have been time to research circulation figures to assess the impact on overall sales (without Marvels) in so short a period.

Also, why was the retail price increased in late 1964?

The US price increase of December 1961 from 10 cents to 12 did not hit the pocket of UK buyers, and the dollar/pound exchange rate at that time was fixed, not floating as it is now.

A possible explanation is that Marvel decided, because of rising production costs, to increase their price (or reduce their discount, which amounts to the same thing) to T & P, so T & P reduced their order temporarily, resulting in the shortage of late 1964 Marvels, still noticeable as late as 1983 (as Alan Austin recorded in his Price Guide).

Of course, T & P would have had to adjust the price of DCs upwards in line with Marvel, even though DCs were in all probability costing them less.

We need to find some trade journals of the time.

[Garystar]

15 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Also, why was the retail price increased in late 1964?

The price rise coincides with the first UKPV gap. Hypothesis - one party wanted to increase the price the other reluctant, hence gap in UKPV whilst agreement made. Perhaps T&P sales so good they were confident they could sell for 10d, Marvel didn’t want to be priced above DC. Perhaps Marvel wanted to increase cost to T&P who would only agree if they could pass cost onto consumer. 
There must have been some agreement/contract between Marvel and T&P, what chance UKPV gap coincides with expiry date. 
Just throwing out some possibles. 

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Garystar said:

1 hour ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Also, why was the retail price increased in late 1964?

The price rise coincides with the first UKPV gap. Hypothesis - one party wanted to increase the price the other reluctant, hence gap in UKPV whilst agreement made. Perhaps T&P sales so good they were confident they could sell for 10d, Marvel didn’t want to be priced above DC. Perhaps Marvel wanted to increase cost to T&P who would only agree if they could pass cost onto consumer. 
There must have been some agreement/contract between Marvel and T&P, what chance UKPV gap coincides with expiry date. 
Just throwing out some possibles. 

We know from the examples I plotted in earlier posts that the first non-UKPV issue for each Marvel title during the first hiatus was stamped 9d, the rest 10d. Then the printed UKPVs returned at 10d when the hiatus ended.

The DC books carried on arriving during the Marvel UKPV gap, stamped 9d and then 10d from the 5 stamp slot of the 8th cycle, same as the Marvels - both Marvel and DC prices rose to 10d at the same time.

So technically, there was no gap as such. We still received all the DCs and (almost) all the Marvel books in the UK it seems. With shipping strikes abandoned as the cause of the printed Marvel UKPVs stopping, the gap must have been down to some contractual issue between T&P and Marvel only as the DCs kept rolling in. Or perhaps a printer issue between Marvel and Sparta. 

But if T&P imported and distributed the cents stamped Marvel copies during the UKPV hiatus, the issue could surely not have been about the timing of price rises. If they were not happy to up the printed price to 10d, why did their books continue as cents copies with a stamped 10d price?

[Get Marwood & I]

Here's a rubbish theory.

T&P say to Marvel in early 1960, "Hey, can we have your unsold books to sell over here in the UK? It works really well for DC currently?"

Marvel say "No. But we could print some specifically for you if you want, with UK prices?" Marvel always have to be awkward you see, different. And they aint letting their books go for tuppence. T&P aren't happy with the additional associated cost for printed UKPVs (as they would become known 60 years later) but go for it anyway as the DC imports are proving popular and they can still make a buck. Pound, sorry.

Then, after a while, Marvel see sense, relent and agree to let the unsold copies go, having seen for themselves how popular their books are in Blighty. The UK buyers though, having gotten used to nice clean 9d printed Marvels, hate the new cents copies with the ugly great stamps and reject them - sales drop.

T&P return to Marvel and ask to have the UKPVs back again.....

 

[Garystar]

42 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

But if T&P imported and distributed the cents stamped Marvel copies during the UKPV hiatus, the issue could surely not have been about the timing of price rises. If they were not happy to up the printed price to 10d, why did their books continue as cents copies with a stamped 10d price?

Once T&P have the cents copies they could stamp them whatever they wanted????

.....what about Marvel/T&P initial agreement expired, they couldn’t agree new contract so no UKPV printed, whilst they negotiated T&P took cents copies and stamped them. Nothing to back this up just hypothetical. 

[Get Marwood & I]

56 minutes ago, Garystar said:

Once T&P have the cents copies they could stamp them whatever they wanted????

.....what about Marvel/T&P initial agreement expired, they couldn’t agree new contract so no UKPV printed, whilst they negotiated T&P took cents copies and stamped them. Nothing to back this up just hypothetical. 

Does that make sense though Gary?

"Can we have some more UKPV's please Marvel?"

"No"

"Oh, right. Unsold cents copies then?"

"Yes. And price them as you please!"

[Albert Tatlock]

The question still remains, why did no late 1960 (Strange Tales # 78, JIM # 61, TTA # 11, 12, 13, TOS # 11, 12) Marvels arrive, pence or cents?

[Garystar]

Marvel.... our contract has expired we want to raise the price by 1 cent per unit for the next contract.

T&P.... no but we’ll take some cent copies until we negotiate you down and sign a new contract.  (We’re making money on the arrangement we don’t want to miss out on interim)

Marvel... Ok we’ll let you buy cent copies until we negotiate you up and sign a new contract. (We’re making money on the arrangement we don’t want to miss out in interim).

Edited November 30, 2020 by Garystar

[Get Marwood & I]

"Hello, is that Marvel? Oh, good. Marvel, we didn't get Strange Tales # 78, JIM # 61, TTA # 11, 12, 13, and TOS 11 and 12. Why not?"

"Hang on T&P,  we'll check. Ah, yes - here we go - we wanted to annoy Albert Tatlock"

"Roger that Marvel. It worked"

 

[Garystar]

49 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

"Hello, is that Marvel? Oh, good. Marvel, we didn't get Strange Tales # 78, JIM # 61, TTA # 11, 12, 13, and TOS 11 and 12. Why not?"

"Hang on T&P,  we'll check. Ah, yes - here we go - we wanted to annoy Albert Tatlock"

"Roger that Marvel. It worked"

 

Marvel......  It worked, he’s still stressed 60 years later. Why don’t we randomly stop an issue or two every couple of years once readers are hooked to upset everyone in UK?

Marvel..... yes we could do that for the next 30 years, that will teach them to burn the White House down. 

[Albert Tatlock]

3 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

The UK buyers though, having gotten used to nice clean 9d printed Marvels, hate the new cents copies with the ugly great stamps and reject them

You're right, it is a rubbish theory.

Nobody I knew back in the day paid the slightest attention to whether the price on the cover was in pence or cents, we just wanted to read them, then some of us decided to form a collection.

Something to do with the hunter-gatherer instinct, the trick cyclists tell us.

[Mr Thorpe]

I thought I'd throw my hypothesis to the wall and see if it sticks!

T&P decide they need to raise the prices of all their American comics from 9d to 10d sometime in 1964.

No problem on the DC's as they are stamped here. Prices go up from 9d to 10d from Oct 1964 cover dates.

T&P make their request to Marvel to change the UKPV price from 9d to 10d (in June/July 1964?). Easier said than done say Marvel and there is a lot of faffing about between T&P, Marvel and the printers at Sparta which takes 9 months.

As an interim Marvel offer T&P their 'unsolds' to supply the UK market.

What do you think?

 

[Get Marwood & I]

10 hours ago, Mr Thorpe said:

I thought I'd throw my hypothesis to the wall and see if it sticks!

T&P decide they need to raise the prices of all their American comics from 9d to 10d sometime in 1964.

No problem on the DC's as they are stamped here. Prices go up from 9d to 10d from Oct 1964 cover dates.

T&P make their request to Marvel to change the UKPV price from 9d to 10d (in June/July 1964?). Easier said than done say Marvel and there is a lot of faffing about between T&P, Marvel and the printers at Sparta which takes 9 months.

As an interim Marvel offer T&P their 'unsolds' to supply the UK market.

What do you think?

 

I like that as a theory.

But I have two actual scenarios from history that undermine it. The first is the L Miller distribution copies which have stamped prices which override the printed one - even the UKPV one - and which show how a distributor could manage a pricing change scenario (albeit downwards in this example):

 

There was nothing to stop T&P following the same principle and stamping the 9d printed UKPVs with the 10d stamps they presumably already had in place for their DCs. 

The second example, printer related, shows how easy it was for Sparta to make price plate changes. The Marvel Price Font Variants show how the same book can change price format several times in one print run. I can't believe it would have taken the best part of a year to make up and put into use a 10d plate. And whilst it was some years later in the process, they managed the 6p/8p, 7p, 8p, 9p, 10p changes swiftly enough it seems.

The fact that the UKPV gaps tend to end with the arrival of increased priced UK copies may just be coincidence. The main two gaps are long enough for it not to be a surprise that it happened. 

Who knows though. 

[Get Marwood & I]

16 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

The question still remains, why did no late 1960 (Strange Tales # 78, JIM # 61, TTA # 11, 12, 13, TOS # 11, 12) Marvels arrive, pence or cents?

I've speculated quite a bit about the missing UKPVs in my Marvel, Miller and US Price Font threads.

There were 19 titles running when the UKPVs started up from cover date May 1960. Of those 19, 6 have no UKPVs at all so we can discount them (Date with Millie, Kathy, Love Romances, Millie the Model, My Own Romance & Teen-Age Romance). 4 were distributed by L Miller so we can discount them (Gunsmoke Western, Rawhide Kid, Wyatt Earp and TGK).

Of the remaining 9 titles, distributed by T&P, the gaps plot by cover date as follows:

There is no calendar month where at least one 9d UKPV does not appear and no real overarching patterns (e.g. the same gaps across the board or volume of issues per calendar month). Although KCO's three missing issues corelate with TTA's and JIM's one correlates with ST. Fairly tenuous

I did a lot of analysis relating to the Marvel US Price Font Variants and - without going over it all again here - found a link between the presence of a UKPV where a non-bold 10c price font existed. That enabled me to predict that Battle #70 would be found as a UKPV and it finally was.

So I'm as confident as I can be that the printed 9d gaps are by design and not just missing in action.

There is no obvious reason for their absence that I'm aware of but we can assume that the absence of replacement stamped cents copies is simply down to the fact that they didn't do that so early into the process or considered the gaps too small to warrant it if they did consider it (whereas the 10 month gap that would follow in 64 would lend itself to bothering).

[Albert Tatlock]

37 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

the absence of replacement stamped cents copies is simply down to the fact that they didn't do that so early into the process

There were no copies of the late 1960 missing issues to stamp. Nothing arrived, no pence and no cents.

There is an ad in Alan Austin's 1983 Price Guide, I think from Gary Fox, with Suspense # 11 and 1 other on his wants list.

Will dig it out later.

[Garystar]

 

[Get Marwood & I]

I just plotted the bi-monthly Aquaman across the 8th and 9th cycles and there were no surprises - the same 9d to 10d switch slot, the same old to new 10d switch slot and no 8th cycle 8 slots which appears to be Marvel only if the plotting there is right. And only one Aquaman issue per slot - no bunching - as expected being a bi-monthly title. 

Found two more of these along the way:

 

[Get Marwood & I]

3 hours ago, Garystar said: